日前，王小龙大使接受新西兰费边学会主席迈克·史密斯专题访谈，重点阐释中国价值观主要内涵及其在内政外交政策中的体现，并结合党的二十大报告重点解读共同富裕、绿色发展、全过程人民民主、和平发展、人类命运共同体等重大政策理念。访谈视频和文字实录如下：
迈克·史密斯：大家好，我是新西兰费边学会的迈克·史密斯，很高兴今天有机会采访中华人民共和国王小龙大使，与他共同讨论中国的价值观。去年我现场聆听了王小龙大使在国际关系学会（NZIIA）的演讲，在那次演讲中他也谈到了中国的价值观：“中国的价值理念、社会制度、现代化道路，是中国人基于中国的历史文化和现实国情作出的选择。事实证明，这些选择有效解决了中国的问题，满足了中国人民的需要。”大使，非常感谢您接受这次采访，希望您能在上次演讲的基础上进一步深入地阐释中国的价值观。但在此之前，您能否跟我们聊一下您自己，在哪里出生、成长，去了哪些地方，做了哪些事，以及个人兴趣爱好等，让我们对您有更多了解。Mike Smith：Hello, my name is Mike Smith, from the New Zealand Fabian Society. It's my great pleasure today to interview Ambassador Wang Xiaolong from the People's Republic of China to talk with us about China's values and what China values. I heard Ambassador Wang speak at a meeting convened by the Institute of International Relations（NZIIA） last year and in the course of that meeting, he did address the question of China's values and said, "China's choice for values, social system and path to modernity is made by our own people, based on our own history, culture and realities. All these choices have proven to be suitable and effective to solve China's problems and meet the needs of the Chinese people". So, Ambassador, thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. And thank you very much for coming to explain to us China's values in more detail than when you were able to address to the Institute of International Relations. But before we do that, I wonder if you could tell us a bit about yourself, where you're from in China, where you grew up, where you go, what you've done, where you've been, what your own personal interests are, so we get a bit of a feel for your own situation.王大使：谢谢，史密斯先生，感谢您让我有机会分享我对于中国价值观的思考和看法。我们在刚才的交流中提到，我愿与大家分享中国内政外交政策的底层逻辑。至于我本人，我出生在中国的天津，在北京长大、读大学。在我的外交生涯中，曾经常驻的地方包括纽约、新加坡和蒙古，目前是新西兰。实际上，我首次到访新西兰是在1999年，那时新西兰首次举办亚太经合组织领导人峰会。我那时主管相关的事务，因此多次到访这个美丽的国家，那时我还想可能在我的职业生涯中有机会到这里常驻。而那时我并不知道有一天我会回到新西兰当大使，而现在实现了。Ambassador Wang：Thank you, Mr. Smith for the opportunity to share my thoughts and perspectives on China's values. We had this chitchat before we actually started, and this is an opportunity to share with whoever is interested some of the underlying logic behind what we do both domestically and in our external relationships. And as for me myself, I was born in Tianjin, a major city in China and grew up mostly in Beijing and went to university there. And my career has been in the Foreign Service with postings in New York, Singapore, Mongolia and now New Zealand. Actually, I had my first encounters with New Zealand back in 1999 when New Zealand played host to the APEC summit meeting for the first time around. My responsibility at that time took me quite a number of times to your beautiful country and I was thinking to myself at the time that maybe I could come back for one of the postings in my career. I didn't know at the time that one day I would come back as Ambassador. And here I am.迈克·史密斯：确实，这是一个美丽的国度，我从您的推特账号看到您喜欢徒步。所以您有在美丽的新西兰徒步过吗？Mike Smith：Well, it certainly is a beautiful country and I see from your Twitter account that you're a hiker. So have you done any hiking in New Zealand in our beautiful country?王大使：是的，周末天气好的时候我喜欢出去徒步，主要是在大惠灵顿地区。Ambassador Wang：Yeah, right. I enjoy hiking on weekends whenever the weather permits, and mostly around the greater Wellington region.迈克·史密斯：所以您还没有机会去库克山之类的地方？您是否想过要到更远的地方徒步，当然想必您平时工作很忙。Mike Smith：So you haven't been able to conquer Mount Cook or anything like that. Do you have any other ambitions to go a bit further afield or I suppose you very busy.王大使：是的，我也希望家人过来的时候我们可以一起到更远的地方走一走。Ambassador Wang：Yes, hopefully, when I'm joined by my families so that we can share the experience.迈克·史密斯：好的，回到我们今天要谈的话题。中国有上千年的历史，当然这取决于你怎么算，两千年或五千年。但它作为一个如此大的国家，一个历史悠久的独特政治实体，这在其他国家所罕见的。中国也有其自身的文化符号，如孔子，和基于考试的文官体系（科举制度），而西方对此可能都不甚了解。所以您如何向我们的观众描述中国从传统文化中衍生的价值观？以及如何从中国的文明文化角度理解中国的价值观？Mike Smith：Okay, well, getting on to the issue that we want to talk about. China has existed as a country for thousands of years, I mean, depending on how you count 2000 years or 5000 years, but it's extraordinary that it is such a large country, it has been such a distinct entity, political entity for a long time, which I don't think many other places have been. And it has its own cultural icon such as Confucius and systems such as the examination based mandarin that may not be well understood in the West. So how would you describe for our audience China's values that derived from its traditional culture, and what is meant by China's civilization culture?王大使：如果可以的话，我想我可以从普遍意义上价值观在一个社会或一个国家中的作用谈起，然后具体到中国的价值观。价值观对任何国家或社会来说都非常重要，价值观是将社会凝聚为整体的一个重要纽带，塑造了一个社会的政治、经济和社会制度，也为其对内和对外政策提供了依据。正如我在NZIIA的演讲中所说，一个国家、民族、社会的价值观，是包括其历史文化、社会制度在内的国情的产物。不同国家的国情千差万别，价值观往往也就存在差异。不管谁喜欢与否，不同国家之间价值观的多样性是世界的现实。这不仅使我们的世界更有趣，而且，如果我们在相处中能相互尊重，平等对待不同价值观和体系，而不是认为某种价值观高人一等的话，这种多样性也会成为创新和进步的力量源泉和重要推动力。而对中国来说，我们的价值观是我们的历史和文化产物。让我举一些例子来说明在中国我们所珍视的价值观。比如，中国人（至少大多数中国人）相信“天下为公”，我们认为集体利益高于个人利益。但与此同时，我们也相信基于个人成长的个体责任。如果您讲中文的话，您就会知道这样一种说法：“君子自强不息”，从而修身、齐家、平天下。我们也相信“团结统一”对于一个民族和国家的重要性。自两千多年前孔子时代起，我们就相信“民为邦本”，将人民视为国家权力和合法性的最重要来源。中国人也相信“天人合一”。您刚刚提到科举制度，事实上这曾是数百年来支持中国社会官僚体系的重要制度。这一制度也是基于“任人唯贤”和“自强不息”等理念，以及教育对于实现社会公平的重要的“均衡器”作用。另外，我们还相信“讲信修睦”、“以和为贵”。在如何处理不论是人与人之间还是国与国之间的关系这一层面，我们一直信奉“己所不欲勿施于人”。Ambassador Wang：Maybe I can, if you allow me, start by talking about the role values play in a society or country and more generally, then come to China's values so to speak. Because values are important to any country or society, an essential part of the bonds that help to keep it together as a cohesive whole, shaping its political, economic, and social systems and also informing its policies, both domestic and foreign. As I explained in my speech at NZIIA, the values of a country are the product or function of its circumstances, including its culture, its history and other aspects of its realities. As the circumstances of different countries are different, so it's no surprise that the values of different countries might be different as well. And like it or not, as we see it, this diversity in terms of the values among the different countries is the fact of life of our world. It not only makes our world more interesting, if we can treat each other with mutual respect and see the different values and systems as equals rather than assuming that one is necessarily superior to the other, and if we can keep an open mind, ready to appreciate and learn from one another, such diversity might be a source of strength and an important driver for innovation and progress. In the case of China, our values are shaped, again, by our history, our culture.Let me give you some examples of the values we hold dear in China. For example, we believe, at least most of us believe, in the pursuit of the common and greater good for the society. And we have always believed the collective would come before the individual. But at the same time, we believe in the responsibility of the individuals on the basis of constant self improvement. If you can speak Chinese, you know there is a saying in Chinese "君子自强不息". So on the basis of that constant self improvement, individuals would have responsibilities to contribute to the families and， on that basis, to the wider community as well. And we also believe in the value of unity as a nation, as a state. Dating back to the Confucius years, that was 2000 years ago, we have been believing in putting people first, seeing people as the most important source of power and legitimacy for the state. We also believe in the harmony between nature and humanity. And you mentioned the examination based mandarinate system, actually that's the system that has been underpinning the officialdom of the Chinese society for hundreds of years. So that is based on the belief in meritocracy and self improvement again, and also the value of education for all as an equalizer. And on another level we believe in in good faith and friendliness among neighbors. And we also value the paramount importance of peace. And in terms of how we conduct our relationships, both on the human level but also in between states, we have always believed in the importance to ensure that we don't do to others what we don't want others to do to us.
迈克·史密斯：这也是基督教的理想，所以这其中可能有所联系。Mike Smith：That's the Christian ideal, so there's a connection.王大使：是的，两者之间可能有联系。这其实是孔子的一句教诲：“己所不欲，勿施于人”。Ambassador Wang：Right there is the connection. That was actually one of the teachings from Confucius himself. “己所不欲，勿施于人。Mike Smith：What date was Confucius saying this?Ambassador Wang：That was 2000 years ago.That's about the same time when Christianity was born.Mike Smith：Maybe some transfer possibly.王大使：我们以这些价值观为荣，因为它们定义了我们作为个体和国家身份认知这一根本问题。中国乐于与感兴趣的人分享我们的价值观、想法和观点。但是，正如我们不愿被说教，或者不希望别人把他们的价值观强加给我们一样，中国永远不会将自己的价值观作为评判他人的标准，不会试图向他人说教，更不会试图把我们的价值观强加给别人。Ambassador Wang：We pride ourselves on these values as they define what and who we are as both individuals and as a nation. And we'll be more than happy to share our values, our thoughts, our perspectives, with whoever is interested. But just as we hate to be preached to, or we don't want others to impose their values upon us, we shall never use our own values as yardsticks to judge others, try to preach to others or try to impose our values upon them.迈克·史密斯：事实上，这也是我听完您的演讲的一大收获，您在演讲中表明中国有基于自身历史和文化的独特价值观。同时我认为您对于集体主义的重要性的概括十分精辟，以及重视个人成长、守望相助和重视家庭等等。这些是人们普遍追求的价值，当然具体到每个个体可能会有细微的差别，但我的一大收获是，我发觉您以中国的这些价值为豪，中国人民也以此为豪，但你们并不认为其他文化有必要都遵循这些价值观。不过，为了更好理解和寻找我们价值观的共通之处，我想谈谈新西兰的情况。对新西兰来说，我们为自己基于价值观的制度感到自豪，但在国家内部也有白人的自由主义价值观和毛利的重视家族社区的价值观，两者有所不同，但在新西兰，我们互相学习并建立起了一种更为宏大的价值观。所以我想我们可以讨论一些中国的历史传统文化的具体体现，在我看来中国的脱贫攻坚和带领8000万人民（实际为9000多万）摆脱贫困就是一个很好的体现。您能否谈一谈这一壮举是如何推进又是如何真正实现的？中国是如何做到的？Mike Smith：That was one of the takeaways I took from your speech actually, making that point that you have your own values which are based on your history and culture condition. And I think that's a great summary of the importance of the collective, the importance of self improvement, the importance of looking after others, the importance of family. Those are values that I think all of us can aspire to. There are certainly nuances but the the point I think that I did take away was that you were proud of China's values, so the Chinese people are. But you don't see them necessarily as the values for other cultures to adopt or whatever. But to understand and to look for points of commonality where we can share some of those values because, yes, we pride ourselves on our value based system, but we have in this country Pakeha liberal values and Maori whanau based values that are different and what's happening here is we're learning from each other and building something that is bigger than all of us. So perhaps if we could just move to some of the ways in which China's history normal values have been expressed, and I think particularly on the ending of extreme poverty and the bringing of 800 million people out of poverty. It seems to be that that's one of humanity's great achievements. And I wonder if you could talk to us a bit about how that developed and how it was actually achieved. What did China do to actually bring that about?王大使：您可能也注意到去年十月刚刚召开了中国共产党第二十次全国代表大会，在二十大报告中我们确立了中国式现代化道路，这一道路的一个本质要求，也是中国特色社会主义的一个本质要求就是“共同富裕”。从本质上讲，共同富裕意味着发展必须是广泛、包容的，共同富裕是全体人民的富裕，不是少数人的富裕。这是共同富裕“是什么”。至于共同富裕“不是什么”，共同富裕不是平均主义，中国曾经尝试过平均主义，但并不成功。共同富裕也不会一夜之间发生，而是要经过一个长期的历史过程。所以对中国来说当务之急是发展经济，将蛋糕做大，同时想办法通过社会和再分配政策把蛋糕切得更好。我们通过激励或奖励辛勤工作、主动精神和勇于创新，鼓励一部分人以合法方式先富起来。但与此同时，我们也鼓励已经富起来的个人和企业承担社会责任，帮助其他人也富起来。在政府层面，我们建立广泛的社会保障体系，建立基本社会服务体系，包括教育，正如我刚刚所说教育是促进社会阶层向上流动的均衡器，还包括医疗和基本住房保障等。实现共同富裕的一个重要部分就是您刚刚提到的——持续多年的脱贫工作。您说得对，中国打赢了人类历史上最大规模的脱贫攻坚战，近十亿人口实现脱贫。关于我们是如何做到这一点的已经有许多研究，中国确实成功做到了许多其他国家没有做到的事情。就在我们庆祝中国共产党百年华诞的前夕，我们正式宣布已经在中国历史性地解决了绝对贫困问题。有关于此的一系列研究中，中国成功的一个基本要素就是政治承诺。没有哪个国家的政治阶层，特别是领导层，能够像中国这样紧紧抓住扶贫工作不放的。Ambassador Wang：You may have noticed that we held the 20th Party Congress last October and in the report issued by the Party Congress we identified what is he called the Chinese Path to Modernization, and one of the defining features of that Chinese Path, and actually it's also one of the defining features of what we call the Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, is common prosperity. And what it means essentially, is that growth and development should be broad-based and inclusive and the benefits of that growth and development should be enjoyed by all members of the society rather than only a small minority. And that is what it is. In terms of what it isn't, common prosperity is not egalitarianism because we've been there before and it was not a very successful experience. And common prosperity will not take place overnight. It can only be achieved over a long historical process. So it's very clear to us that the immediate priority as a government, as a country, is to grow the economy so that we can, so to speak, make the cake bigger, as we explore ways to cut it better as well through social and re-distributional policies. We encourage people to get rich, of course through legal means by incentivizing or rewarding hard work, initiative and creativity. But at the same time, we would also encourage those individuals and businesses that have thriven to fulfill their social responsibilities and help with others to get ahead as well. And at the government level, we have put in place broad based social safety nets, and also established mechanisms for the provision of basic social services like education, again as the equalizer to facilitate upward social mobility, health care and basic housing.An important part of the effort for common prosperity would be what you mentioned-- poverty reduction over the years. And I think you're right, we have perhaps conducted one of the biggest, arguably, poverty reduction program in human history, which has lifted nearly 1 billion people out of extreme or absolute poverty. And many studies have been conducted on how we actually managed that. Because apparently China has succeeded where some of the other countries have not been as successful. Just before we celebrated the Centenary of the Chinese Communist Party, we were able to proclaim that we have definitively solved the problem of absolute poverty in China. And a series of studies were carried out on how we did that. One of the basic ingredients for the recipe for our success story would be political commitment. There is no country whose political class, particularly the leadership, is as committed as China.迈克·史密斯：是的，我在阅读有关材料时，让我印象深刻的也是这一壮举是如何实现的，以及如何通过政治承诺得以实现。比如专家和干部被送到全国各地寻找生活贫困的家庭，并给他们带去脱贫致富的机会。政治承诺正是我认为中国能够聚焦于实现它所设定的目标的关键所在。另外对我来说，我一直在思考全球环境问题将如何解决，而在这个过程中我们也乐见中国在其中发挥关键作用。所以我想知道中国正采取哪些办法来解决环境关切以及气候变化等问题？Mike Smith：Well, in my readings about them, one of the things that stood out for me is how it was about achievement and it was about achievement through political commitment. So for example, how academies were sent to all over to find the people who are in that situation and bring them to the opportunities. That I think is for me an important part of how I see China actually aims at achieving what it sets out to do. So I wonder that, again for me, I've always thought that if the world's environmental problems would be solved, China would be a crucial part of achieving the sort of change that we would all like to see. So I wonder what are the ways in which China is looking to address the environmental concerns and issues and climate change and so on?王大使：关于这个问题，我也想先从理念层面谈起。因为正如刚刚我们在讨论价值观的时候，我谈到过中国人重视“天人合一”，这是我们的一个最基本的理念。在当今，中国的生态文明理念，可以总结为“两山论”，这是习近平总书记在担任浙江省委书记时首先提出的。“两山论”的含义是“绿水青山就是金山银山”。本质上，这意味着我们需要统筹生态环境保护与经济社会发展。多年来，我们不仅是这么说的，也是这么做的，采取切实措施实现了清洁、绿色、低碳发展方式的转型。举个例子，中国实施了世界上最大的植树造林工程。一般来说每年全球约有四分之一的新增绿化面积来自中国。在这个过程中，我们在很大程度上重新绿化了数百年来裸露贫瘠的黄土高原。Ambassador Wang：Let me start with, again, what happens at the conceptual level. Because, as I briefly discussed when we talked about values earlier in our conversation, I touched on the importance we attach to harmony between nature and humanity, that is a fundamental belief we hold. And in the modern days, the environmental values of China or what we call the concepts for ecological civilization, can be best summarized as the Two Mountains Theory, which was first espoused by General Secretary Xi Jinping when he was the Party Secretary in Zhejiang Province. Essentially, the Two Mountains Theory is about the "green mountains and clear waters are gold and silver moutains". So essentially, it means that we need to integrate ecological and environmental protection on the one hand, and economic and social development on the other. We have over the years, I think, not only talked the talk, but also walked the walk by taking measures to realize the transition towards a cleaner, greener and a lower-carbon development. Let me also give you some examples. We have carried out probably the biggest tree planting program in this world. So in a typical year, over a quarter of the new forest cover globally would be found in China. And in that process, we have largely re-greened the loess plateau, which has been laid bare and barren for hundreds of years.Mike Smith：I've been to this plateau and have seen that.王大使：是的。黄土高原的形成是数百年来环境退化的结果，但通过植树造林中国很大程度上扭转了这一过程。中国还有很多变化，例如，在能源结构方面，中国已将煤炭在一次能源结构中的比例从峰值的超过70%降至目前的56%，降幅高达15个百分点。我们还将清洁能源在总能源消耗中的比例提高到了25%左右。就可再生能源发电而言，如果我没记错的话，到2021年，装机容量已经超过1000吉瓦，大约是新西兰总装机容量的100多倍。随着我们取得稳步进展，我们将逐步实现2030年碳达峰和2060年碳中和的承诺。Ambassador Wang：Indeed. So that occurred as a result of a environmental degradation over hundreds of years, but I think we've managed to reverse a large part of that process by re-greening a lot of those areas. In terms of the changes, for example, in the energy mix, we have reduced the proportion of coal in our primary energy structure from its peak of over 70% to the current 56%. So that's a reduction of a whopping 15 percentage points. And we have also, as we speak, raised the proportion of clean energy in the overall energy consumption to about 25%. And in terms of renewable power generation, the installed capacity by 2021, if I remember correctly, has already reached over 1000 gigawatts, meaning it's about roughly more than 100 times of the entire installed power generating capacity of New Zealand. So we're making steady progress, and that puts us on track towards achieving or fulfilling our commitment on peak CO2 emissions by 2030 and carbon neutrality by 2060.迈克·史密斯：谢谢您的阐述。我们也许可以谈谈其他一些一般性价值，尤其是民主，这一西方文化中的重要价值。您提到的二十大报告中谈到“改善社会治理体系和全过程人民民主”。我想知道，这意味着什么，如何体现“全过程人民民主”，它又是如何运作的？我的妻子之前到访过厦门，在城市里看到了普通人的生活以及他们想要看到的改变。我想知道，“改善社会治理体系和全过程人民民主”在共产党内部是如何运作的，比如是否会体现在中国的五年发展规划中？Mike Smith：Well, thank you for that. And we should talk perhaps about some of the other general benefits and one thing particularly of democracy, important value in Western culture, and the recent Congress Report that you mentioned, spoke of “improving the social governance system and whole process democracy”. And I just wondered, what does that mean, how is it expressed and how does it work? I mean, my wife had seen examples of what I imagined that means in people want to change in the city and like Xiamen at past for example, and how does it work inside the the Communist Party, for example, in the development of China's five year plans?王大使：民主确实是非常重要的价值观。在我看来，民主并非是西方独有的，事实上，它是我们所倡导的全人类共同价值中的重要元素。但确实，民主是多样的，世界上并不存在适用于所有国家的统一公式。民主在一个具体国家的表现形式是该国人民基于自身国情作出的选择。我想说，就算是在西方国家中，民主的运作方式也是因国而异。就中国而言，我赞同你所言，我们将自己的民主称为全过程人民民主，它实现了直接民主和间接民主相统一，过程导向的程序民主和结果导向的实质民主相统一，以及选举民主和协商民主相统一。这方面的两个案例分别是全国人民代表大会和中国人民政治协商会议，恰好一年一度的“两会”也刚刚结束。这两个机构是中国民主体制的核心，发挥了重要作用。全国人民代表大会是最高国家权力机关，它的代表是通过直接和间接选举相结合的方式选出的。选民直接选举产生县乡两级人大代表，县级以上人大代表由下一级人大选举产生，直至全国人大。全国人民代表大会行使广泛权力，制定国家法律，任命和选举国家主要官员，包括国家主席和国务院总理，并对重大问题作出决定，包括批准国民经济和社会发展计划、国家年度预算等。全国人民代表大会还对政府和司法机关行使监督权。另一个重要机构是中国人民政治协商会议，是中国共产党和其他政党开展对话、合作、协商的主要平台。与其他一些国家不同的是，中国共产党和各民主党派之间是合作而非竞争关系。上述两个机构，连同其他一些程序一道，确保了中国人民能够以有效、实质和持续的方式行使他们的民主权利。例如，政协会就所有重大的立法和政策问题进行广泛协商。这将有助于确保民主不会随着选举的结束而停止或进入休眠状态。Ambassador Wang：So democracy is indeed an important value. But I might suggest that it's not unique to the west, in fact, it's a major element in what we call the common values shared by the entire humanity. But indeed, it's true that democracy may take multiple forms. There's simply no uniform formula that would fit all countries. The way democracy is manifested in a specific country is the result ,again, of choices made by its own people on the basis of its own national realities. I would say, even among Western countries, the way democracy functions may vary from one country to another. In the case of China, you are right how we characterize our version of democracy as the whole process people's democracy, which is a combination of direct democracy and indirect democracy, and a combination of process-oriented procedural democracy and result-oriented substantive democracy. It is also a combination of electoral democracy and consultative democracy.The two cases in point would be the National People's Congress and the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, which have just concluded their annual twin sessions and these two are the central arms in the architecture for Chinese democracy at work. The NPC is the highest organ of state power. Its deputies are elected through a process of a combination again of direct and indirect elections. The voters will elect directly the deputies up to the county level. And beyond the county level, the deputies of lower-level People's Congress will elect the deputies for the Congress at higher level, up to the national level. And the National People's Congress has broad powers. It makes the law of the land, appoints and elects the major officers of the state, including the President and the Premier, and it makes major decisions including adopting the national plans for economic and social development, and the annual state budget. It also exercises oversight over the functioning of the government and the judiciary. And another arm would be the CPPCC, which is a major platform for dialogue, cooperation and consultation between the Communist Party and other political parties in China, which have, unlike some of the other countries, a collaborative rather than the competitive relationship. But these two institutions, together with some of the other processes, are in place to make sure that the Chinese people can exercise their democratic rights in an effective, substantive and continuous manner. Meaning that, for example, the CPPCC carry out broad consultations on all the major legislative and policy issues. So these will help to ensure that democracy won't stop or go into hibernation with the conclusion of elections.迈克·史密斯：我还记得当时去北京和中国共产党交流的时候，当时的一位副部长告诉我们想谈一下党的建设。中国共产党有9000多万名党员，而我们（工党）的党员数量远远不及。虽然有人不喜欢，但我们也确实有关于政党行为的要求。我想在9000多万名党员内部会存在大量的讨论、对话和辩论，我猜更多会关注有效成果。这都是我个人的推测，我期待您在这个问题上的评论，实际上是这样的吗？Mike Smith：I must confess that I remember when we went to Beijing to meet the Communist Party, the Vice Minister told us we were wanting to talk about party building. And I thought the Communist Party has 90 million members and we don't have anywhere near that. But we did have a, I didn't think they wanted to live with doing party behaviour. And I imagined inside 90 million members was a great deal of discussion and dialogue and debate. And probably I imagined focus on effective outcomes. That would be my expectation, I suppose. And I'd be interested in your comments on that. Is that the way it works?王大使：确实，我们有基础广泛的审议程序。几乎所有重大政策问题，特别是当涉及到如国民经济和社会发展计划这样的重大政策文件时，往往会有一个长达一年的起草过程，我们在不同层面进行磋商，收集和征求社会各界的意见。关于中国的民主，我想分享的一个关键点在于，我认为它在施政成效方面有一个相当良好的记录，这就是为什么它赢得了中国人民的广泛支持。我认为来自人民的支持是任何政治制度合法性最重要的来源及衡量标准。Ambassador Wang：Yes, we have broad-based deliberative processes. Again, almost all of the major policy issues, particularly when a major policy paper like the National Plan for Economic and Social Development is concerned. So it's very often a year-long process with consultations taking place at different levels, collecting and soliciting the opinions from different walks of life of the society. And one of the key observations I like to share on our version of democracy is that it has a, I think, a reasonably good proven track record in terms of delivering results. So that's why it has won broad-based support from the Chinese people. I think support from the people is probably the most important source and measure of legitimacy for any political system.迈克·史密斯：没错，这才是衡量民主的标准，无论在任何地方都是如此，不是吗？我曾去过天坛，这一衡量标准也是中国的长期传统，对吧？确实，如果民主不为人民服务，它就不成立。下面，让我们谈谈和平共处，这对所有人都很重要，中国在这方面是怎么做的？能不能从你们的历史中举几个例子？中方最近促成了伊朗和沙特阿拉伯之间恢复关系，我认为这是迈向和平的宏伟一步。我们都在期待接下来会发生什么，而习近平主席下周就将访问俄罗斯。那么，我想问的是，中国历史上对和平关系是怎么看的？Mike Smith：Exactly, I mean, that's a measure of democracy, wherever it exists, isn't it? I've been to the Temple of Heaven as well. That's a long standing tradition inside China as well, isn't? The fact that if it's not working for the people, it's not working. Okay, so speaking of peaceful coexistence, it's important for all of us too and so what's China's approach to that and works out of your history and some example? I mean, it's been the recent brokering the resumption of relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia. I think it's a magnificent step towards peace that it means to me so as China's, and of course, we were all awaiting what happens, and Xi Jinping going to Russia next week. So what about China's approach to peaceful relations and through your history?王大使：同样，对和平的高度重视本就是中华传统价值观的重要组成，一直延续至今。和平本身就十分重要，同时它也是实现发展的基础。我们认为和平与发展是当今世界的两大主题。但不幸的是，当今的世界并不太平，始终被战争的幽灵甚至是灾祸所困扰。如今，国际社会面临的一个重大挑战是，我们如何能够超越国家间不可避免存在的分歧，通过和平方式解决争端，并创造条件使所有国家，包括经济、社会和政治制度非常不同的国家，都能够和平共处。中国是最早的，也可以说是最坚定的和平共处的倡导者和实践者之一。如果您还记得，早在20世纪50年代，我们与其他一些发展中国家伙伴一起，提出了和平共处五项原则，即互相尊重主权和领土完整、互不侵犯、互不干涉内政、平等互利，最后当然是和平共处。中国始终坚持继承和发扬这一传统，一个最近的例子是习近平主席提出的全球安全倡议，为国际社会携手消弭国际冲突根源、实现世界持久和平与发展确立了核心理念、目标和原则。其他的一些例子包括您刚刚提到的，我们促成沙特和伊朗在北京对话并达成协议，这一努力得到了国际社会的广泛欢迎，特别是中东地区国家，这为地区乃至世界和平与稳定作出了贡献。另一个例子是中方关于政治解决乌克兰危机提出的十二点倡议，其中既包括一些基本原则，也包括我们可以共同采取的具体措施和步骤，包括停火止战、启动和谈等。Ambassador Wang：Again, the paramount importance we attach to peace as such in and by itself is an important part of our values, both traditionally and today. Because not only peace is important by itself, but also it serves as the foundation for development to take place. And we see peace and development as the two of organizing and overarching themes for the world today. But unfortunately, our world is not yet a peaceful place and has been haunted constantly by the spectre or even the scourge of war as such. And a major challenge for the international community today is how we can rise above the differences that inevitably exist between countries, and settle the disputes through peaceful means and create conditions to enable all countries, including those with very different economic, social and political systems to coexist peacefully. And China is one of the earliest and arguably the staunchest advocates and practitioners of peaceful coexistence. If you recall, back in the 1950s we, together with some other fellow developing country, we put forward the five principles of peaceful coexistence, namely, respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, non-aggression, non-interference in each other's internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit, and finally, of course, peaceful coexistence.And carrying on that tradition, a more recent example is what we call the Global Security Initiative, as proposed by President Xi Jinping, which lays down the core concepts, goals and principles for how we,as international community ,can work together to eliminate the root causes of international conflicts and bring about lasting peace and security in our world. And, some other concrete examples would include what you have just mentioned, our efforts to broker a deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia, which has been broadly welcomed by the international community, particularly those in the Middle East as a contribution to greater peace and stability in that region and in the wider world for that reason. And another example would be the 12-point proposal for political settlement of the Ukrainian situation, starting with some fundamental principles, but also some of the specific steps we can take together including the cessation of hostilities and the start of serious peace negotiations. 迈克·史密斯：真的，我为中国提出有关倡议感到高兴，战争确实需要停下来，太多的生命正在被摧残和杀害，是时候停下这一切了。我认为中方在这方面的倡议明确展示了对和平的承诺。Mike Smith：Really, I would like to congratulate China on, you know, bringing that issue, that the war needs to stop because what's happening is too many people, the lives of them are being destroyed and killed and it's time for it to stop. And I think, you know, so I think China's initiative in that area does definitely demonstrate the commitment to peace.王大使：尽管没有一蹴而就解决问题的灵丹妙药，但如果各方都能同向发力，为和谈创造必要条件，我想实现和平就能有更大的机会。Ambassador Wang：Although there's no magic silver bullet to solve the problem at one fell swoop. But if all of us could pull in the same direction, then create the necessary conditions for negotiations, I think, yeah, they there will be greater chance for peace.迈克·史密斯：重要的是，中国作为世界大国正在制定停止战争的目标。还有一件事，二十大报告中提到了推动构建人类命运共同体。从您之前所谈来看，我认为中国始终有着一种为世界作贡献的理念。如果我没理解错的话，这主要关乎每个人的发展。我想请您展开说说构建人类命运共同体的内涵，以及向我们介绍一下中国如何看待自身为世界作出的贡献。Mike Smith：It's important that China, as a major world power, is making that goal for hostilities to stop. Well, one more thing, perhaps, if we could, is the Congress Report spoke of building a human community with a shared future, and I think from what you've said as well that ,China has a view of what it can offer the world. And if I've understood you rightly, it's basically about development for everybody. So I wonder if you could just expand on what's meant by that and what's China see as its offer to the world? The rest of the world?王大使：好的，习近平主席在2013年首次提出了构建人类命运共同体理念。从那时起，我们对于这一理念的认识也在不断深化。现在，构建人类命运共同体已成为我们看待世界、实施外交政策的指导性理念。可以从三个层面来理解和阐释。首先，它描绘了世界的现状，我们彼此相互联结、相互依存。第二，它为我们共同面临的全球性挑战提供了解决方案，即通过全球伙伴关系来集体应对诸如气候变化、疫情等重大问题。第三，它阐释了我们可以携手建设一个持久和平、可持续发展和共同繁荣的世界的美好愿景。在这样一个内涵丰富的框架下，我们还提出了一些具体的重大倡议，首先就是我们刚刚简单谈论过的全球安全倡议，此外还有全球发展倡议，旨在促进全球可持续发展、实现共同繁荣，这与联合国可持续发展目标一脉相承。另一个与此相关的重大倡议是“一带一路”倡议，今年正好是倡议提出的第十年。“一带一路”倡议是2013年习近平主席在出访哈萨克斯坦和印度尼西亚时首次提出，被认为是中国向世界提供的最大规模国际公共产品，也是推动构建人类命运共同体的最佳载体。“一带一路”倡议的本质是更加紧密和强大的互联互通，不仅局限于基础设施领域，也包括贸易、投资、金融，以及更为重要的人文领域。通过共商共建共享建设一个更加美好、紧密、繁荣的世界。十年来，共建“一带一路”取得了显著成果，倡议的实施为参与国带来了重大实际利益。为了回顾进展、总结经验、规划未来，今年下半年我们将举办第三届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛，很可能是在10月份。这将是倡议发展过程中的重要里程碑，也将为推动构建人类命运共同体的宏伟事业作出积极贡献。Ambassador Wang：Right, the proposition of building the human community or the global community with a shared future was first put forward by President Xi in 2013. And since then, I think our thinking on this has evolved, so that it has become one of the organizing concepts for how we see this world, and how we conduct our foreign policy. They could be understood or interpreted on three levels. First, it is a description of the state of our world, the way we are interconnected and interdependent. And second, it offers a solution to some of the global challenges we faced that require global partnerships for collective solutions, like climate change, like pandemics such as COVID. And third, it is also a vision of the kind of world we could build together, as a family of nations, a world of lasting peace, sustainable development and common prosperity.And under that umbrella of this broad proposition, we have also put forward some major specific initiatives, the foremost of which would be the Global Security Initiative, which I've just discussed briefly, but also the Global Development Initiative, which aims to promote global sustainable development and common prosperity in alignment with achieving the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. Another major initiative in this connection would be the Belt and Road Initiative, which marks its 10th anniversary this year. First launched by the President in Kazakhstan and Indonesia back in 2013, the Belt and Road Initiative has been characterized as the biggest international public good offered by China to the world. And it's also described as the best vehicle for advancing towards building the global human community with a shared future. And the essence of the initiative is both closer and stronger connectivity, not only in the areas of infrastructure, but also in areas of trade and investment, in finance, and, more importantly, in people-to-people links. So the idea is that we plan together, build together and benefit together so that we could build a better and more closely connected but also a more prosperous world. And since the initiative was launched 10 years ago, remarkable progress has been made. And the implementation of the Initiative has brought major material tangible benefits to the countries involved. To reflect on the progress made and the lessons we could learn, and to plan for the next steps, we will host the third High-level Forum for Belt and Road International Cooperation later this year, most probably in October. And that'll be a major, I think, milestone for the evolution of initiative as such. And hopefully, that will contribute to the wider cause of building the global community a shared future as well.迈克·史密斯：好的，非常感谢王大使。您看是否还有其他问题？任何您想提的但我们没有谈到的事情？或者您认为关于中国及其价值观还有什么人们会感兴趣的地方？Mike Smith：Well, thank you very much indeed, Ambassador Wang. Are there any other matters that you would like to mention that we haven't asked you about or what you think would people be interested to know about China and its values?王大使：我想我们已经谈得很充分了。但如果说有什么需要补充的话，因为我是驻新西兰大使，中新两国在去年刚刚庆祝了双边关系50周年。过去50年间，在双方共同努力下，我们的关系取得了巨大进步。面向未来，我们有更多值得期待的。Ambassador Wang：I think we've been quite thorough in our discussions. But if I have anything to add, because I'm ambassador here in New Zealand, I would say that we have just celebrated last year the 50th anniversary of our bilateral relationship. We've made enormous progress in those 50 years. But I would say with joint efforts on both sides, we would have much more to look forward to.迈克·史密斯：好的，关于双边关系，我这里有张照片，展示了新西兰时任海外贸易部长乔·沃尔丁1973年访华时的情景，这是两国1972年建交以来新西兰首个部级访华团组。照片上他正在同周恩来总理会见，您之前提到的和平共处五项原则我想就能追溯到周总理并在他身上充分展现。照片配了一个标题叫“当乔遇上周，我们开门问了个好”。在我看来，新中关系对新西兰、对我们双方都很重要。Mike Smith：Well, on that note, this photo that I put up here shows Ambassador Joe Walding, sorry Minister Joe Walding, Minister of Overseas Trade in 1973 visiting China. It was the first ministerial visit after the recognition of China in 1972, meeting Premier Zhou Enlai, and you mentioned the five principles of peace and I believe they are dated from and those are prominent shown by him. And the caption says the day Joe met Chow, we have opened the door and said hello. And so that's I think is what in my opinion has been a very important relationship for, well for New Zealand, and for both of us.王大使：这次访问发生在1973年，是我们双方建交一年之后。回望1972年，我记得那时我们的双边贸易额大概是700万新元，而到去年，上次我查的时候，我们双边贸易额已经突破400亿新元。谁能想到经过50年发展，我们能达到这样的高度。Ambassador Wang：So that visit took place in 1973, one year after the opening of our official relationship. And back in 1972, I think our bilateral trade stood at about 7 million NZD. Then, last year, the last time I checked, our bilateral trade stood at over 40 billion NZD. Who would imagine that in 50 years’ time, we could reach such heights.迈克·史密斯：好的，再次感谢大使接受这次采访。我们期待未来与您进行更多的讨论和交流。Mike Smith：Okay. Well, once again, Ambassador, thank you very much for this interview. We look forward to further discussions and communication.Ambassador Wang：Again, thank you very much for the opportunity. It's a pleasure.