GUYON: Nau mai haere mai piki mai kaki mai kia ora e te iwi and welcome to 30 with me Guyon Espiner. We do 30 minutes, one guest and no cuts. So what we record is what you get. Well, with Donald Trump preparing to return to the White House, tensions between the US and China may be set to escalate. Trump plans massive tariffs on Chinese goods, likely to start a trade war between the two rival superpowers who already square off over China's intentions over Taiwan. Where does this leave Aotearoa? China, of course, is our biggest trading partner, but our security interests lie with the US and its Western allies. The Chinese Ambassador to New Zealand is His Excellency, Dr Wang Xiaolong. He's held the position since 2022 and he's heard New Zealand concerns about Chinese Communist Party influence on politics here, and human rights issues, including the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. How does he respond to those concerns, and what are China's intentions as it continues its remarkable rise to power and wealth in the world? let's start the clock then. 30 minutes with Ambassador Wang Xiaolong. 

GUYON: Thank you Ambassador. Welcome to 30 and thank you very much for coming into the studio. We really appreciate your time.

Ambassador Wang:  It’s a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

GUYON: If we start big picture wise, over the last 40 years or so, China has lifted nearly 800 million people out of poverty. What is the goal in the 21st century? Do you see yourself as a superpower to rival America? 

Ambassador Wang: Well, our goal, consistently over the past 40 years, has been to reform and open up our own economy to improve people's lives, and I think we've come a long way towards meeting that goal. So within the space of about 40 years, about two generations’time, we transformed China from one of the poorest countries in this world to one of the biggest economies. And as you yourself have mentioned, in that process, we lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, which is quite an achievement and a miraculous development in human history.

GUYON: You've done that with market economics and capitalism, really haven't you.

Ambassador Wang: No, it's what we call the Chinese socialism with Chinese characteristics. We're still a socialist country, but we've learned from others, and given play to the role of the market in that process. 

GUYON: So do you see your economy as a capitalist economy or socialist economy? 

Ambassador Wang: It is definitely a socialist economy. But again, it's socialist economy with Chinese characteristics. You probably don't find many examples like China's in the world. In that way, China is a bit unique. It's based on our history, but again, by learning from others as well. 

GUYON: That's fascinating. And I want to ask you, do you aspire to export that vision in the world? We've seen America export its soft power, its cultural power, massively in countries like New Zealand throughout the world. Is the Chinese model something that you want to export? 

Ambassador Wang: No, definitely not. It's something we have figured out that suits for us, but it doesn't necessarily could be easily transportable to other countries, because other countries have their own different circumstances, and our model or our system is based on our culture, on our history, and it's a choice by our people. It has proven to have worked remarkably well for us. 

GUYON: How does having Donald Trump back in the White House change things for China.

Ambassador Wang: Well, whoever America elects as its president is a choice, obviously, for the American people and we respect that choice. As far as we are concerned, our approach towards the relationship with the United States has been very consistent. We have always wanted to establish and maintain a mutually respectful, peacefully coexisting and cooperative and win-win relationship with the United States. That was the approach we adopted during the first Trump presidency, and that has been the approach through the Biden administration, and I think it's going to be the same approach going into the second Trump presidency.

GUYON: Yeah and they are good intentions, and I don't think people would argue with that. But he is talking about 60% tariffs, even higher, potentially on Chinese inports into America. I mean, that's going to hit your economy, isn't it? It's going to hurt you. 

Ambassador Wang: Again, we want to establish a stable, healthy and sustainable relationship with the United States, out of the belief that such a relationship would be in the fundamental interest of both countries, and it is also the expectation of the rest of the international community. On our part, we're ready to work with the United States to strengthen dialogue and communication, manage differences constructively, and then on that basis, build up the mutually beneficial cooperation. But it takes two to tango.

GUYON: It does. And how would you respond to those kinds of tariffs? Will China respond by putting tariffs on US goods?

Ambassador Wang: We still have time, so we'll see how much of the campaign rhetoric will be translated into real actions on the ground once the second Trump administration is in office. But let me say this, we have our own legitimate interests as well, and we hope to establish a constructive relationship with all countries, United States included. But at the same time, if necessary, we'll take resolute and determined measures to defend our own interests. 

GUYON: What might that look like? 

Ambassador Wang: Well, because trade, by nature and by definition, is mutually beneficial. That has been the case, I think, over the past 40 years or so, which has seen exponential growth in two-way trade between the United States and China,. Both sides have benefited enormously from that trade. Hopefully that could continue. 

GUYON: So do you see yourselves as being a country that supports free trade? I mean, you came into the World Trade Organization. I think New Zealand supported your accession to the World Trade Organization pretty early. You believe in free trade.

Ambassador Wang: We do. And we have benefited from an open economy characterized by liberalization and integration between economies. In that process, the Chinese economy has grown to this day, and other countries have benefited as well including the United States.

GUYON: So we’ve got this situation where the socialist Chinese economy believes in free trade and a capitalist American economy which is willing to put tariffs on. 

Ambassador Wang: Indeed, it's a reversal of roles, in a way. Many years back, we were quite conservative and careful with opening our own markets to the rest of the world. But at the end of the day, we decided that it will be in our best interest to do so. At the time, we were preached by a lot of Western countries, including the United States, that free trade, opening markets, will serve our interest and it will serve the interest of everyone. So we tried to be a good student. We tried our best, and even we experienced some difficulties in that process. But we tried to overcome those difficulties, and we made sacrifices in that process, because inevitably, when you open your markets, the industries, the businesses, there will be winners and losers. But overall, the entirety of the economy has benefited, and that's why we have managed to grow the economy over the years so much, and we have lifted so many people out of poverty.

GUYON: Okay, let's talk about military spending and defense. What is China's defense budget?

Ambassador Wang: Well, I can't tell you an exact figure now.

GUYON: Well, officially, it's 230 billion USD, isn't it? 

Ambassador Wang: No, it's less than 2% of our GDP. (according to the latest official data)

GUYON: And you’re what a 15 trillion dollar economy or something?

Ambassador Wang: I think the defense budget of any country is a function of the size of its economy.

GUYON: Okay, do you deliberately keep that secret though? 

Ambassador Wang: No. 

GUYON: You just don't know it off the top of your head. Fair enough.

Ambassador Wang: If you read the budget every year we make out of the NPC, the National People's Congress sessions, then you get the figure.

GUYON: Okay. Senator Dan Sullivan from the US has said that your actual defense budget is closer to about 700 billion USD, similar to the US who spends 800 billion? Do you accept that? 

Ambassador Wang: No, that's not true. 

GUYON: Not nearly that big. 

Ambassador Wang: No, not nearly. 

GUYON: But you've been increasing it 

Ambassador Wang: Because they're trying to alleviate the pressure, the focus of attention on themselves, and the United States is by far the biggest spender on defense. Its budget is, I think, bigger than the next 10 countries combined.

GUYON: That has traditionally been the figure, yes, but you've been increasing your defense spending at about 7% a year for the last three years, which is significant. 

Ambassador Wang: No, it's in line with the overall growth of the economy. That's inevitable, because with the growth of the economy and the growth of our interests to defend, it is absolutely necessary for us to grow the budget for the defense in pace. 

GUYON: Yeah, the PLA blasted intercontinental ballistic missile over the Pacific for the first time in 44 years, recently. Why did you do that?

Ambassador Wang: Well, we have a saying in Chinese a bully can burn down a house while ordinary people cannot light a candle. Certainly on the testing of intercontinental ballistic missiles, we can't hold a candle to some of the other countries. As you said, we have done it only once in more than 40 years. And other countries do it every year, and they do it multiple times every year. 

GUYON: Do you plan to do this on a regular basis now?

Ambassador Wang: That's not a question I can answer. But let me say this, I can hardly understand, and no one has given me an explanation on why China doing it only once in more than 40 years is a problem, while other countries doing it multiple times each and every year is not.

Ambassador Wang: And by the way, some further points on this. Among the nuclear-weapon states, China is the only one that has committed to a no first use policy, meaning that we won't use our nuclear weapons unless and until others use nuclear weapons against us. We're the only nuclear-weapon state that is openly committed to not using nuclear weapons against non-nuclear-weapon states and against nuclear-free zones and hopefully other nuclear-weapon states could do the same, so that our world could be a safer place. 

GUYON: We might return to that when we talk about AUKUS. I want to talk about Taiwan. Naval vessels from New Zealand and Australia sailed through the Taiwan Strait in September. Were you okay with that? 

Ambassador Wang: No, we have concerns, because it's entirely unnecessary. And if anyone is truly interested in maintaining or seeing peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait, we should all support one China policy or one China principle, and support the peaceful unification of the country, and refrain from doing anything that would add to the tensions in the Taiwan straits. 

GUYON: Do you think New Zealand was adding to the tensions by sailing the vessels? 

Ambassador Wang:Certainly it's not helpful.

GUYON: What are your intentions there? I mean, as you say, New Zealand has respected, formally, since 1972 the one China policy. Your intention is to, as you see it, have a reunification of Taiwan with China. 

Ambassador Wang: Yes, that's the aspiration of Chinese people on both sides of Taiwan straits.

GUYON: Well the Taiwanese don’t want that, do they? Looking at a poll here from the Taiwanese public opinion foundation from September 2023, 12% wanted to support unification, nearly 50% wanted national independence, and 27% wanted the status quo. So people in Taiwan don't want to be reunified, do they? 

Ambassador Wang: No, I don't think you can trust the numbers from these polls. If you check with the Taiwanese people, most of them will tell you they consider themselves Chinese one way or another, and they consider the destiny of the future of Taiwan as an island and part of China connected with the future of the entirety of China. On the part of the mainland government, we would very much hope that we can peacefully reunify our country, and that is still our preference, and that is, I think, in line with the aspirations of Chinese people. 

GUYON: How will you do that? How will you peacefully reunite?

Ambassador Wang: If we can all stick to the one China principle, and if all our international partners could support us and uphold their commitment, not only playing lip service, but walking the walk, I think that will create the better environment and the conditions for the country to be peacefully reunified sooner or later. Hopefully sooner rather than later. 

GUYON: What does sooner mean? 

Ambassador Wang: As soon as possible. Because the Chinese people have waited for too long for that.

GUYON: You've carried out a lot of naval exercises around Taiwan. Some see this as sort of a forerunner for a blockade, a naval blockade, of Taiwan. I mean, are you prepared to go to war over Taiwan?

Ambassador Wang: Still, our preference is to peacefully reunify the country, but we don't rule out any other possibilities, because if separation or independence of Taiwan from the mainland is imposed on us, we're ready to take all measures necessary to safeguard the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country.

GUYON: Including war? 

Ambassador Wang: Well, nothing is ruled out. Everything is on the table. But still, our strong preference is for peaceful reunification, and we'll make every effort to achieve that goal, and hopefully our partners could support us by, again, delivering on their commitment to the one China policy or principle. 

GUYON: Let's talk about AUKUS. New Zealand has been invited to join pillar two of AUKUS. This is pitched as a non-nuclear military technology sharing agreement between the US, UK and Australia. What is China's attitude about New Zealand joining pillar two of AUKUS?

Ambassador Wang: Well, as far as AUKUS is concerned, there are a number of issues involved. One is its implications for the nuclear weapons Non-Proliferation regime, which is one of the key pillars of the post war international order that has helped to keep the peace and stability in the world. Because AUKUS entails, I don't know to what extent you are privy to this, AUKUS entails the transfer of nuclear weapons-grade, nuclear materials. 

GUYON: To Australia. 

Ambassador Wang: From a nuclear-weapon state to a non-nuclear-weapon state for the first time in history, 

GUYON: This is to power the Australian submarines. 

Ambassador Wang: Yeah. If that is allowed to happen, it will raise serious questions about the consistency or lack of it for the NPT regime, and it might end the integrity of the regime as we know it. 

GUYON: That's an interesting point. What about the specifics of New Zealand's involvement in it? 

Ambassador Wang: Right, but there's again, as a second aspect to it, which is no less important, because AUKUS is the result of product of zero sum cold war mentality. As has been openly proclaimed by members of AUKUS, the organization has been created to counter the rise of China. If history teaches us anything, it is that these exclusive blocs or alliances targeted at third countries never work. They never contribute to greater peace and stability. On the contrary, they will lead, almost inevitably, to greater divisiveness, confrontation, or even conflict and war. For that reason, we have serious concerns about AUKUS. You can't really separate the so-called two pillars, because one complements and supports the other. As far as New Zealand is concerned, at the end of the day, whether New Zealand will want to relate to AUKUS or how it want to relate to it is a call to be made by New Zealand. We respect the full sovereign right of New Zealand to do that. At the same time, we hope that when weighing up this all important decision, New Zealand will take into account number one, its own long-term and best interest, number two, the potential implications for regional security and the wider, again, nuclear weapons Non-Proliferation regime, and number three, the potential impact on the relationship between China and New Zealand. 

GUYON: Well, let's pick up on that. What might it be? Mean, what would China do if New Zealand did join pillar two of AUKUS?

Ambassador Wang: We have come a long way in our relationship between New Zealand and China. This, I think, has taken place as a result of very hard work on both sides over many years. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and nothing can be taken for granted. Be it the trade links or the people links, what lies at the foundation is the mutual understanding and mutual trust between our two countries. As people say, trust is one of the most precious, but also at the same time, probably one of the most fragile commodities. It may take years to build up, and it just might take seconds to be destroyed. 

GUYON: And would signing AUKUS destroy that trust?

Ambassador Wang: We would advise against anything that threatens to erode that very important trust between us. We should be extremely careful. As far as we're concerned, we're ready to work with the New Zealand side to build up that trust so that our relationship in a whole range of areas could stand on firmer  ground. 

GUYON: So would there be economic consequences for New Zealand from China? Should we join pillar two?

Ambassador Wang: Inevitably that will have a negative impact on the relationship, because it has, I think, impacts on, for example, the perception of the Chinese people as consumers. Mostly, New Zealand enjoys a very positive national branding among the Chinese people. But sometimes when you read the comments on social media in China, there is confusion or even concern about the state of the relationship. So I think that's something we should on both sides pay attention to as we go forward in our relationship, because at the end of the day, a good relationship between our two countries is in the interest of both sides, particularly both peoples. Through common efforts, the cooperation between us has been mutually beneficial, and we should keep it that way. 

GUYON: One of the concerns expressed, including by New Zealand politicians, about human rights issues in China has been the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Is it true that up to a million people have been detained in re-education camps there? 

Ambassador Wang:No, categorically, it's not true. It's baseless. But think of it - 

GUYON: Do you have re-education camps in Xinjiang for Uyghurs? 

Ambassador Wang: Largely what happens in Xinjiang is efforts or measures we've taken to counter terrorism and extremism in the region, and this is not very different from what is being done in some of the other countries, including New Zealand. We have some small programs for de-radicalization, but think of it, the accusation, one million people. Do you know how many people are involved? That's tantamount to about 1/5 of the entire New Zealand population. 

GUYON: Well, it is. So what are the numbers then? How many people are in re-education camps in Xinjiang?

Ambassador Wang: We don't have re education camps. Frankly, honestly, we don't have re-education camps. 

GUYON: So are there no Uygur detained in Xinjiang at all? 

Ambassador Wang: Well, not if they don't violate the law.

GUYON: Okay, but how many are detained at the moment? 

Ambassador Wang: Well, only those that have been tried and sentenced in a court of law.

GUYON: Right. So what roughly would the numbers be?

Ambassador Wang: It's not nearly as many as one million. That's a wild figure, a wild exaggeration. I think that has been manufactured for a purpose to smear China and to make China look bad. But I don't know why the people are so keen about the Uyghurs or the Muslims in China. I don't know whether you've noticed when there are countries that try to point fingers on what happens to what we call the Weiwuer people in Xinjiang region, no one from the Muslim countries or the Islamic countries in this world has come out to say, no, what happens in China is wrong or this is mass violation of human rights. No, none of the Muslims or Islamic countries has done that. That says a lot about the true state of affairs, as far as the Muslim or the Weiwuer or Uyghur people are in Xinjiang. 

GUYON : That's an interesting point. Let's bring it back to New Zealand. In this city of Auckland, there are a lot of Chinese expatriates who have come to live in New Zealand. In fact, about 250,000 all up in New Zealand. Does the embassy or the CCP in any way try to monitor or direct or control what these people do or how they express themselves?

Ambassador Wang: Well, again, categorically, we reject the claims of so-called foreign interference by China in New Zealand, because all of them are baseless and false. Let me get to this. Non-interference in other countries internal affairs is one of the longest fundamental principles in Chinese foreign policy. Just as we don't want others to nose around in our own house, we never, and let me repeat, we never interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. When it comes to foreign interference, we know who the grand or king interferer is. They do this by launching mis- or even disinformation warfare in and against third countries. They carry out comprehensive and global surveillance and eavesdropping operations.

GUYON: Who are you talking about?

Ambassador Wang:You know who I'm talking about 

GUYON: No, be clear. Be clear. Are you talking about Russia? Are you talking about America? 

Ambassador Wang: They even do that by deploying significant surveillance capabilities in other countries without even bothering to inform the governments of those countries involved. They also instigate chaos and even color revolutions. And when all of these fail, they will engage in sometimes outright and blatant invasion of other countries. So if anybody cares about foreign interference, we know where to look and whom to look at. 

GUYON: Well who, be clear, who are you talking about?

Ambassador Wang: Let me say this. Certainly not China. You know as well as I do 

GUYON: Who we're talking you're talking about?

Ambassador Wang: You know who the king interferer is, but certainly not China. And these have been manufactured again for a purpose: to spread fear among the Chinese community, to sow discord between China and New Zealand, and to serve their own ulterior geopolitical objectives. But this is extremely unfair, because not only do they not reflect realities, it's deeply unfair to the members of the Chinese community here. Most of them have come to New Zealand because they think that New Zealand is an open, inclusive, welcoming and friendly society, and they are worried. I’ve had some conversations with a lot of them. There’s a lot of nervousness and fear, and they're worried that things are taking a disappointing turn. 

GUYON: Are they? Do you deny, though, that when there's a protest, or whether it's Falun Gong or a protest over China's actions in Hong Kong, or whatever it is, do you not send people to take photographs of the people who are at those protests or harass them in any way? Can you totally rule out that sort of action?

Ambassador Wang: When things like that happened, we had people demonstrating on different sides, and we had a lot of people taking pictures on the ground of both sides.

GUYON: So the embassy would do that?

Ambassador Wang: No, we don't do that. And, largely, I think the demonstrators or the supporters, they organize themselves. Let me also add this very briefly: we're following the developments in relation to the so called foreign interference legislation. Again, we respect the full sovereign right of New Zealand to make its own laws, but at the same time, we hope that it won't be done in a way that would allow misuse or abuse or that would get into the way of normal relations between countries and peoples. We have a large community here. Over the years, they have contributed enormously to local development and to the growth of the relationship between China and New Zealand. As people of Chinese descent or heritage, they have a natural interest in the relationship and in what happens in China as their mother country. What's wrong with them supporting the development of China, supporting the growth of the relationship, and supporting the peaceful reunification of China? Suddenly a lot of these would become problematic these days, and that's why people are nervous. People are no longer sure. People are fearful. And we do hope that the legitimate rights and interests of the Chinese community would be fully respected here, and an inclusive and non-discriminatory environment could be created for them to study, to work and to live in this beautiful country. 

GUYON: Well, thank you very much for sharing that with us. Thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it. 

Ambassador Wang: Well, it's a pleasure. 

GUYON: That was 30 minutes with Ambassador Wang Xiaolong, and this is 30 with me, Guyon Espiner. We'll catch you next time.