日前,王小龙大使接受新西兰电视台政论节目《问答》主持人杰克•塔姆专访,阐释在台湾问题、中新关系等问题上的看法观点。采访8月21日播出。采访实录全文如下:
主持人:非常感谢大使阁下接受采访。
Jack: Your excellency, thank you very much for giving us your time.
王大使:谢谢你,很高兴接受此次采访。
Ambassador Wang: Well,thank you. It’s a pleasure.
主持人:大使阁下,您为什么觉得此次采访很重要?
Jack: Why do you feel that it's important to do this interview?
王大使:中新关系正处在一个重要的关头,我们都面临着复杂、快速变化的世界,都面临着非常复杂的挑战。双边关系也在不断演变,以适应在两国和周边世界正在发生的一些变化。所以我认为此次采访是一个回顾总结双边关系,并与观众分享我的一些观察和思考的很好的机会。也要感谢你提供这个机会。
Ambassador Wang: Well, I think in terms of the relationship, the bilateral relationship between New Zealand and China is standing at an important juncture, because we are faced with the complex and the rapidly changing world. Very complex challenges face both of us. As for the relationship itself, it keeps evolving in response to some of the changes that are taking place in both countries and around us in the world. So I think it is a good moment to reflect on the relationship and share some of my views and observations with the audience. So thank you for the opportunity.
主持人:很高兴能与阁下对话。我认为回顾总结是一个非常好的开始。根据亚新基金会调研,自2019年以来,受访者中认为中国友好的比例已经下降到13%以下,而将中国视作威胁的人数在这段时间内几乎翻了一番。我很想知道阁下认为原因是什么?
Jack: It's a great pleasure to be speaking with you. And I think that reflections are a really good place to start. I was interested to know that since 2019 data from Asia New Zealand Foundation shows the number of New Zealanders who perceive China as being friendly has dropped to the low of 13%. The number of New Zealanders who perceive China as being threatening has almost doubled in that time. And I wonder why you think that is?
王大使:我一直在与亚新基金会的一些同事,以及新西兰其他各界的朋友探讨为什么会出现这种情况。我认为部分原因是受新冠疫情影响,导致缺少面对面的交流和访问,这在某种程度上造成了越来越多的人无法看到并了解事情的真相。坦白说,很多人告诉我,部分新西兰媒体所扮演的角色并没有发挥积极作用。因为新冠疫情,媒体成为人们获取信息的主要渠道,例如新西兰人获取关于中国的信息。在这方面,媒体正发挥着巨大的作用。但是,部分新媒体传播了很多关于中国的虚假信息和谣言,这阻碍了新民众了解中国的真实情况。
Ambassador Wang: Well, I've been talking with some of the colleagues in the Foundation as well as friends from other circles here in New Zealand why that is the case. I think part of the reason is the COVID, the impact, the lack of face-to-face exchanges, the visits. So in a way that has contributed to the increasing lack of understanding and the ability to see things as they are. And honestly speaking, people also tell me that probably the role being played by some of the media here in New Zealand is not being very helpful. Because of the COVID, the media is the main channel through which people will access information, for example, for people here in New Zealand about China. In that way, the media is playing an out-sized role. But because of what has happened, there's a lot of misinformation even disinformation going around about China that has contributed to, I think, the lack of accurate understanding of how things are in China. So probably that explains it.
主持人:关于媒体的作用,您能想到具体的例子吗?您认为媒体在哪些方面对中国进行了歪曲或错误报道?
Jack: Talk to me a little bit more about the media aspect, the media’s role. Are there any specific examples you can think of, where you think China has been misrepresented or poorly represented?
王大使:当你在新西兰一些媒体上看到关于中国的报道时,很多时候,这些报道的来源是其他地方。它们往往转载一些外国媒体的报道,而这些媒体关于中国的报道和评论不一定能代表新西兰的真实民意,也很难反映新西兰的实际利益。
Ambassador Wang: Well, when you look at the reports on China carried on some of the platforms, very often, these reports or coverage is sourced somewhere else. Because they're very often syndicated reports originating in some of the foreign media, and a lot of these media when they cover what is going on in China and making comments,they don't necessarily reflect the real pubic opinion of New Zealand,and they may not have the best interest of New Zealand at heart.
主持人:您说这造成了误解,具体包括哪些?
Jack: You say it has contributed to misunderstandings, so what are those misunderstandings?
王大使:比如说,关于中国新冠疫情的真实情况、政策、举措和经济状况。再比如中国是如何处理一些外交政策问题及对地区和世界的影响,还有中国与新西兰关系。
Ambassador Wang: Well, for example, about what is going on with the COVID, the policies, the approach, the state of the economy. And for example, how some of the foreign policy issues have been approached by China, the impact on the region and the wider world. And how it relates to New Zealand.
主持人:让我们稍微关注一下一些地缘政治问题。对于太平洋地区紧张局势的加剧,中国应承担什么责任?
Jack: Let's focus a little bit on some of those geopolitical issues. What responsibility does China take for the increased tensions within the Pacific Region?
王大使:如果你指的是正在发生的事情,比如台海局势,那么我认为问题的核心是中国的主权和领土完整,以及与此紧密相关的一个中国原则。一个中国原则的核心是世界上只有一个中国,台湾是中国领土不可分割的一部分,中华人民共和国政府是代表全中国的唯一合法代表。这是一个被广泛承认和支持的国际共识,为联合国大会第2758号决议所确认。它也是中国与包括新西兰、美国在内的世界上180多个国家建立外交关系的政治基础。美国众议长佩洛西窜台严重侵犯了中国主权和领土完整,严重违反了美国对一个中国的承诺,严重危及了台海和亚太地区和平稳定。
Ambassador Wang: Well, if what you mean is what is going on, for example, across the Taiwan Strait, I think the crux of what is going on relates to Taiwan is the sovereignty and territorial integrity of China, and the One China Principle associated with it. At the very heart of that principle is the recognition that there is only one China, Taiwan is part of China, and the government of the People's Republic of China is the sole legal representative of China. So that is a widely recognized and supported international consensus, as affirmed, for example, in the UN General Assembly Resolution 2758. It is also the political foundation of the diplomatic relationships we have established with over 180 countries in this world, including New Zealand, including the United States. What has happened with the latest visit by Speaker Pelosi to Taiwan, is an affront to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of China. It is a violation of the commitment made by the United States itself on One China. It's also a serious threat to peace in Taiwan Strait and stability in the wider Asia Pacific region.
主持人:作为对这次访问的回应,中国在台湾海峡举行了连续数天的军事演训。我知道,这些演训扰乱了航运,包括新西兰的航运。中国的军事演训妨碍了新西兰出口商和他们在该地区的商业利益,这是否公平?
Jack: As a response to that visit, China held military exercises in the Taiwan Strait for several days. I know that those exercises disrupted shipping including New Zealand shipping. Is it fair that China's military exercises should impinge New Zealand exporters and their commercial interests in the region?
王大使:由于佩洛西窜台的严重性和对中国主权和领土完整的严重侵犯,中方别无选择,只有坚决回击。但中方的反制措施是合法的、合理的,也是适度、有节的。首先,有关反制措施是“防御性”的,目的是为了维护中国的主权和领土完整。同时,也是“预防性”的,是对美方和“台独”分裂势力在错误的道路上越走越远,以至于局势发展到不可收拾的地步的威慑。如果走到那一步,将对台海的和平和亚太地区的稳定带来真正的灾难。在很大程度上,中方采取的反制措施是负责任的行为,是为了防止更糟糕的事情发生,因为那不符合包括新西兰在内的各方的利益。
Ambassador Wang: Well,because of the serious nature of the visit, the impact on China’s sovereignty and territorial integrity as a country, we have no choice but to respond and our response has been legitimate, appropriate, but at the same time measured and proportionate. But first and foremost, the counter-measures we have taken are meant to be defensive, to safeguard our sovereignty and territorial integrity. But at the same time, it's also meant to be pre-emptive as a deterrent against further escalation by the United States, and those separation and independence-seeking elements in Taiwan beyond the point of no return. Because if that happens, that will spell real disaster for peace and stability, first and foremost, in the Taiwan Strait, but with serious implications for the wider Asia Pacific region as well. In a way, what we are doing is the responsible thing to do, just to prevent something worse from happening that will damage the interest of everyone, including countries like New Zealand.
主持人:什么是“更糟糕的事情”,大使阁下担心的是什么?
Jack: When you say something worse, what is your concern there? What do you mean?
王大使:近来,大家都在议论“台海局势现状已被打破”。的确,现状已经被打破,但不是被中方,而是被美方和台湾当局打破的。台海现状的核心是海峡两岸及国际社会都承认只有一个中国,海峡两岸同属一个中国。但是,自从蔡英文政府上台以来,台湾当局在美方等一些势力的支持下,一直在采取各种手段否定一个中国原则。美国方面也是如此,最近,他们与台湾当局升级了官方互动,公然开展军事交流和合作,违背了自己做出的逐步减少并最终停止对台军售的承诺,在质与量上都加大了对台军售力度。此次佩洛西窜台后,他们不仅没有纠正错误,反而变本加厉派其他议员再次窜台。对此,中方必须坚决采取反制措施,划清红线。否则,局势可能滑向失控的境地。
Ambassador Wang: There's been a lot of talk about the status quo being broken. Indeed, the status quo has been broken, not by China, but by the United States and the Taiwanese authorities. What is central to the status quo ante would be the recognition that there is only One China and the commitment internationally on the One China Principle. But since the Tsai Ing-wen government came to power, it has been consistently taking steps, egged on by some forces, including some of those in the United States, to walk back the One China Principle, the shared recognition on both sides of the Taiwan Strait that there is only one China, and both sides of the Taiwan Strait belong to that same one China. And on the part of the United States as well, more recently, they've taken steps to upgrade their official interactions with Taiwan. They've even forayed into military exchanges and military cooperation. And contrary to their commitments to phase down and eventually phase out arms sales to Taiwan, they have phased up those sales to Taiwan, both in terms of quantity and quality. And with this latest visit by Speaker Pelosi,they have upped the ante significantly. Instead of going for a course correction, they have doubled down with a follow up visit. So we need to take the counter-measures to draw a line in the sand. Because if this is allowed to go on, it's going to be a very slippery road.
主持人:是走向军事冲突吗?这是您的担忧吗?
Jack: To a military conflict? Is that your concern?
王大使:是的。当然,中方不会寻求任何军事冲突,因为我们一直支持和平,反对战争。但如果战争或军事冲突强加给我们,我们也别无选择,只能做出坚决回应。你可能已经注意到,中国政府最近发布了《台湾问题与新时代中国统一事业》白皮书。这是中国政府就台湾问题发布的第三份白皮书。在每一份白皮书中,中方都明确表示要推动实现国家的和平统一,我们一直以来都在为和平统一而不懈努力。海峡两岸此前曾建立对话和经济合作机制,达成了一些重要共识并取得重要进展。但是自从蔡英文政府上台后,两岸关系进程出现了倒退。中国政府仍将尽最大努力争取和平统一,但不会排除有关选项,我们之所以保持所有选项,并非一定要这么做,而是作为对“台独”的一种威慑,这也是实现和平统一的最大保障。
Ambassador Wang: Yeah, certainly, we won't seek any military conflict, because we have always stood for peace and opposed war. But if war or military conflict is imposed upon us, we have no choice but to respond. Let me make a follow-up point. You may have noticed the most recent white paper we have issued on the question of Taiwan and the unification with the motherland. This is the third white paper we have issued on the question. And in each and every white paper, we have made it clear consistently, that what we will be aiming for would be peaceful reunification of the country, and we've been making consistent efforts to bring about that result. At some point, we even made some significant progress with the cooperation from the authorities from the other side of the Strait. We've established a framework for dialogues to take place, and we've established a framework for economic cooperation across the Strait to take place. But again, since Tsai Ing-wen came to power, that process has gone into reverse. And we have made it very clear that we will still make our best endeavors to aim for peaceful solution, peaceful reunification of the country. But we won't rule out any options. We want to keep all options on the table. Not because we want to seek it, but because we want to keep it as an option, as a deterrent against escalatory moves on the other side. That would also serve as the best guarantee that there will be a peaceful solution,and the country will be reunified peacefully.
主持人:请问新西兰对中所安全合作协议的反应将对中新关系造成什么影响?
Jack: How has the reaction of New Zealand to that Solomon’s deal affected our relationship with China?
王大使:我认为,外界关于中所安全合作协议在初始阶段存在许多误解。有关中国可能在所罗门群岛建立军事基地、长期驻军的说法完全是谣言。有关协议是中国政府应所政府在去年所发生大规模骚乱后提出的请求,经双方共同协商达成的,在内容上聚焦执法安全合作。所首都霍尼亚拉发生的暴乱导致市中心的很大部分被烧毁,当地华人社区首当其冲受到影响。时至今日,在我们对话的当下,仍有不少华人因此无家可归。所政府提出开展执法安全合作,希望中方帮助他们提高维护当地法律秩序和社会稳定的能力。这就是协议的所有内容,并没有别的东西。协议是在中国与太平洋岛国友好合作的大背景下开展的。正如阿德恩总理所说,中国与岛国有着长期联系。中国早在50年前就与新西兰建立了外交关系,而中方与许多岛国的交往不晚于此。中国与岛国同属发展中国家,在南南合作框架下互帮互助。中方一直致力于向岛国提供力所能及的援助,旨在实现共同发展,解决这些国家存在的贫困问题,帮助他们提高能力建设,应对气候变化等挑战。我认为中新在南太地区有着很多共同利益。我们都乐见南太地区维持和平稳定。无论在南太还是世界上其他地方,中方都无意开展所谓的地缘政治或地缘战略竞争。我们想要做的是帮助岛国实现共同发展。新西兰多年来也一直在帮助这些国家,我们对此表示赞赏。我们理解并尊重新方与岛国传统联系和影响,愿在此基础上,与新方加强合作,统筹资源,形成合力,携手帮助岛国发展。
Ambassador Wang: I think when the news broke that a potential security deal, so to speak, between China and the Solomon Islands was in the offing, there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Because at the time there was the talk about the possibility of a military base or even long-term military presence by China in the Solomon Islands. That turned out to be entirely untrue. What happened, as far as the deal is concerned, is that we were responding to a specific request from the Solomon Islands for assistance and support in terms of law enforcement-focused security cooperation in response to what happened in Honiara for example towards the end of last year. And as part of the chaos or the riots that occurred in Honiara, a large part of the city center was burned down, and it turned out that the local Chinese community borne the brunt of the impact. Even today, as we speak, a lot of them are still left homeless because of what happened there. So I think in the wake of those developments, the Solomon Islands came to us with this specific request for assistance in terms of law enforcement to increase their capacity to maintain law and order and wider social stability. So that's what the deal or the agreement is about and nothing else and nothing more. But this is taking place at the same time in the context of the overall relationship we have with the Solomon Islands and with perhaps some of the other Pacific countries as well. As has been pointed out by, for example, Prime Minister Ardern, China has a long standing relationship with some of these Pacific Island countries. Because remember, we established between China and New Zealand diplomatic relations 50 years ago, and our relations with a lot of these Pacific countries are almost as old as our relationship with New Zealand. So we've been there for a long time, and what we've been doing essentially in the Pacific, because we are fellow developing countries, and within the framework of what we call the South-South cooperation, the fellow developing countries helping each other, we've been providing assistance to them aiming for common development, addressing some of the poverty issues that exist in these countries, but also helping them to increase their capacity to address some of the long-term issues like climate change. So in that sense, I think between New Zealand and China, we share a lot of common interests in the South Pacific. Both of us would like to see peace and stability, first and foremost,in the region. In that respect, let me say in very clear terms that as far as we are concerned, we're not interested at all in so-called geopolitical or geostrategic competition. We're not doing it here in the South Pacific, we're not doing it anywhere else in the world. What we are trying to do is to help them for common development. And in that respect, because New Zealand has been helping these countries as well over the years, and we appreciate that. We understand the New Zealand has long-term, traditional links and influence in this region, we respect those. And we hope that on that basis, we could work with New Zealand to pool our resources together to join our hands to help these Pacific Island Countries.
主持人:您如何看待新西兰关于中所安全协议以及当中方提议同其他太平洋岛国开展安全合作时的反应?
Jack: Did you have any concerns as to New Zealand’s response to the Solomon’s deal and to the proposed deals with other Pacific nations?
王大使:正如我所说,新方刚开始对有关合作确实存在一些误解,但我认为这些误会已很大程度上澄清了。通过沟通,我们双方对彼此在南太地区的关切和立场都有了进一步的认识。前不久,阿德恩总理在出席中国商业峰会时曾说,新西兰愿意探索同中国在南太地区开展合作。中方对此十分欢迎,愿积极着手将这一想法付诸实践。
Ambassador Wang: As I said, there were some misunderstandings in the initial stage. But I think those misunderstandings have been clarified largely. So I think we have a better understanding of where we come from each of us on this as far as this region is concerned, and we appreciate the observation made by Prime Minister Ardern, again, at the China Business Summit, that New Zealand is willing to explore opportunities to work together with China. We are willing to do that as well.
主持人:有意思的是,几周前我采访了马胡塔外长,当时我问她,太平洋岛国是否向中国借贷过多,她回答:“我要说的是,整个南太地区都一定程度上存在向金融机构以及包括中国在内其他国家借贷的问题,这是岛国脆弱性的一个重要来源。”因此,我想知道中国在实施对外发展援助时,将如何帮助太平洋岛国避免陷入类似斯里兰卡那样的经济和政治动荡?
Jack: It's really interesting you raised that because I interviewed New Zealand's Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta a few weeks ago. And I asked her at the time if Pacific nations were too indebted to China, and she said this, "I'd say there's a level of indebtedness that sits across the whole of the Pacific to financial institutions, including the way in which China has funded certain countries, and it's a key area of vulnerability." So I wondered in your development assistance goals, what responsibility does China bear in ensuring that Pacific nations don't end up in a situation like Sri Lanka, in economic and political turmoil?
王大使:我很高兴你提到斯里兰卡,我稍后也会说到。中国在世界各地,无论是拉美、非洲,还是离我们更近的亚洲,同发展中国家开展合作,根本目的是通过基础设施建设、加大关键产业投入、实施教育培训等方式,努力帮助有关国家增强内生发展动力,南太地区也不例外。中方的援助相当一部分是无偿的,当然,我们也向有关国家提供贷款,但大多数都是优惠贷款,优惠程度与包括新西兰在内的其他发展伙伴以及世界银行、亚洲开发银行等多边金融机构都是可比的。让我们看一下斯里兰卡的债务情况,中方贷款仅占其全部外债总额的10%左右,大头还是在一些西方发达国家和多边金融机构。就算是斯里兰卡人自己也会告诉你,他们当前面临的困局与同中国的友好合作没有关系。无论是在斯里兰卡还是在岛国,我们都致力于帮助他们提高长期可持续发展能力。没有任何一个南太岛国因为同中国开展合作而陷入债务困境。事实上,正是由于我们的帮助,不少国家非但没有掉入所谓的“债务陷阱”,反而正在走出“发展不足陷阱”。
Ambassador Wang: I'm glad you mentioned Sri Lanka. But let me come to this. What we've been trying to do in the South Pacific, and in other parts of the world, be it Latin America, Africa, or closer to home, Asia, with developing countries, is trying to increase their capacity for endogenous development, through development of infrastructure, building up some of the key industries, and helping the development of the local capacity as well through training and education. So South Pacific is no exception. And we're doing this largely through donations. But of course, we provide some of the loans as well. But most of them are on very concessional, and comparable terms as compared to some of the other donors like New Zealand and some of the multilateral financial institutions like the World Bank, and like Asia Development Bank. And if you look at Sri Lanka, the loans provided by China accounts for only about 10% of their overall external indebtedness. So most of that is owed to the other Western countries, and the multilateral financial institutions. So even the Sri Lankans themselves will tell you that what has occurred, the difficulties they are in at this moment, has very little to do with their cooperative relationship with China. As a matter of fact, both in Sri Lanka and in some of the South Pacific countries, again, what we're trying to do is to help them to develop their capability for long-term sustainable development. And none of these countries has fallen into debt distress because of their relationship with China. And actually, what we've been helping them is to make development in these countries more sustainable over the long run, so that instead of falling into traps of indebtedness, they could lift themselves out of the trap of underdevelopment.
主持人:当前新西兰的防疫政策已从我们所说的“清除”过渡到与病毒“共存”,您对此有何看法?
Jack: I wondered what have you learned about the pandemic as New Zealand transitioned from COVID elimination, as we called it, to living with the virus?
王大使:对正在发生的事情我有自己的看法,但作为一个旁观者,我不会对新方的做法评头论足、指手画脚。我认为,新西兰已是国际上公认抗疫最成功的典范之一,我对此向新西兰表示祝贺。在中国我们有自己的抗疫方式,我们两国的抗疫策略在初始阶段都坚持“清零”,有许多共同点,但此后,双方又根据实际情况各自有了进一步调整。
Ambassador Wang: Well, I'm here as an observer. I have my opinions on what is going on. But I'd rather keep my counsel because who am I to tell you what is right or what is wrong, or what to do or what not to do. I think New Zealand has been generally recognized internationally as one of the best success stories in terms of your preparedness and response to COVID. And I congratulate New Zealand for that. And we have our own way of dealing with it. But we share some similarities, at least in the initial stage, in our approach, in terms of elimination, but I think the policies in both countries have evolved since then.
主持人:为何中国现在仍在坚持“清零”政策?
Jack: Why is China still pursuing a zero-COVID policy?
王大使:我们称之为“动态清零”。如果你仔细观察,我们的防疫措施其实是随着情况变化不断调整的。例如,我们已不再实行大范围的“封城”,转而更加精准地聚焦病例出现快速增长的局部地区,采取必要的管控措施。此外,对于入境的旅行者,我们仍有集中隔离的要求,但是时间已相应减少到7天。
Ambassador Wang: We characterize it as Dynamic Zero-COVID policy. So if you look at the details, our measures have been evolving over time. For example, we don't have massive lockdowns these days. We are targeting some of the restrictive measures better, focusing on the smaller areas where we have surges in the caseloads. And we have also reduced the number of, we still have MIQ in place in China for travellers going back or into China. It has come down to seven days.
主持人:7天加上3天居家。
Jack: Seven days and three at home.
王大使:对,3天居家健康监测。但和以往相比,最开始是21天集中隔离,然后减少到14天,现在是7天。我相信,随着疫情防控的进展,在数据和科学认识不断深入的支撑下,我们的防疫措施还会不断优化。
Ambassador Wang: Three at home. But as compared to what it used to be, at the beginning, it was 21 days. And at some point, it came down to 14 days. And now it’s 7. But I'm confident that with the virus being brought under further control, I think with the support of data, and the best available science, we'll further adapt our COVID measures.
主持人:请您再详细跟我说说。就在这次采访开始时,您告诉我中方重视人与人之间的交往。在中国商业峰会上,您说:“中国开放的大门不会关闭,只会越开越大”。但目前,去中国仍是非常困难的。中国公民回国需要集中隔离,甚至使馆在惠灵顿的工作人员仍然在坚持“清零”。如果中国对外界“关着门”,它将如何确保人与人之间面对面的交往?
Jack: Tell me a bit more about that. Because right at the start of this interview, you told me about the importance that China places on person-to-person relationships. I know that at the China Business Summit, you said "China's door of opening up will never close. It will only open wider." But at the moment, it is extremely difficult for people to visit China. Chinese citizens who leave China know they face that quarantine period, if they can make it home. Even your staff here in Wellington are still pursuing a version of zero-COVID in New Zealand. So how does China expect the world to maintain face-to-face relationships, if it’s shut off to the world?
王大使:目前看,面对面交往以及人员跨境流动已开始恢复,而且是在加速恢复。我相信随着疫情好转,入境隔离政策进一步放宽。但是,说实话,这是有代价的,需要在短期和长期利益之间权衡取舍。如果说在新西兰这样一个500万人口的国家想要统筹好疫情防控和经济社会发展已属不易,那对中国这样的人口大国来说,不妨试着把难度乘上300倍。中国的国情特殊,人口众多,只有在采取了现有的防控措施、推进疫苗接种的基础上,我们才能保持相对较低的感染率。但是,由于人口基数太过庞大,哪怕是再小比例的人群感染,也是一个巨大的绝对数量,会对公共卫生体系造成巨大压力。一直以来,我认为中新两国之间有一个共同点,那就是我们都坚持人民至上,我们都把人民利益作为包括防疫在内的一切工作的核心。中方始终将保护人民生命健康安全视为防疫的首要任务,并在此基础上,统筹考虑经济社会发展需求。我认为情况会好起来的,近来中方已经采取一系列经济支持和刺激举措,重启人员跨境流动,人们已经开始返回中国,而中国人特别是中国留学生,也已开始返回新西兰。
Ambassador Wang: I think the face-to-face relationships, including the travels across borders, have resumed. And I think it is increasing in a sharply rising trajectory. Again, I'm confident that as things move, the border control measures will further ease. But there's a trade-off, to be honest. The trade-off between what happens in the short term ,the price we have to pay, with what happens in the long term. Because as we see, given the circumstances of China, because if you think doing it in a country like New Zealand, a country of 5 million, is difficult enough, try to multiply the magnitude of difficulty about 300 times. The population is simply so large, even when the rate of infection is relatively low with the control measures and the vaccination campaign. But still, because the base is so huge, even if a small number of people, small rate, small proportion of people get infected, that could be still quite significant by any standard, and those would exert enormous pressure on the public health system. And all along, I think this is what we share between New Zealand and China, we put people first. We put people at the center of everything we do, including the control and response to the pandemic. Our first priority here consistently has been protecting people's lives. So on that basis, we integrate the needs for wider economic and social development. And again, as things evolve, I think we'll be in a better position. And we're already taking measures to support the economy. We're already taking measures to restart the cross-border travels, and people are coming back to China. And at the same time, people are beginning to come back to New Zealand as well, particularly the students from China.
主持人:几年来,我们的节目一直关注着Mewlan NurMuhammad的境况,他是一位新西兰维吾尔人的兄弟,正在新疆服刑。他在新西兰的家人表示曾收到过来自中国大使馆的恐吓电话,被禁止与在新疆的家人联系。请问您将如何保障在新西兰维吾尔人与他们在新疆家人联络的权利?
Jack: For several years on our program, we followed the plight of Mewlan NurMuhammad, who is the brother of a Uyghur New Zealander, who's in prison in Xinjiang. His family here say they've received intimidating phone calls from the Chinese Embassy and that they've been banned from contacting their family in Xinjiang. In what ways can you protect the rights of Uyghur New Zealanders to contact their families in Xinjiang?
王大使:我可以非常明确地告诉你,这些说法完全是子虚乌有。使馆从未有任何人打过这样的电话。但是,如果相关人士向我们寻求帮助,我们会根据必要的程序进行处理,因为向在新西兰的中国公民提供领事帮助与服务也是使馆的一项重要职责。关于涉疆人权问题,因为采访时间有限,我长话短说。最近,有30位伊斯兰国家使节组成代表团访问了新疆,他们与当地各族群众进行了广泛而深入的交流,其中就包括维吾尔人,也就是我们称作“维吾尔少数民族”的群众。这些伊斯兰国家使节在实地访问后得出的结论是,中方有力保障了当地少数民族群众包括宗教权在内的各项权利。我不知道你是否清楚,新疆维吾尔族人口近几十年增长了三倍;而新疆的清真寺数量超过24000座,是世界上清真寺最集中、密度最高的地方,超过了许多伊斯兰国家。这都能反映出中国政府是如何充分尊重和保护新疆少数民族权利的。
Ambassador Wang: Let me tell you in very clear and unmistakable terms, none of those things that have been claimed has actually happened. Because none of my staff has made any calls to anyone of these people, about anything. But if there's a request for help, if we are approached, we will deal with that in accordance with the necessary procedures. And, providing consular help and support for our citizens here in New Zealand is an important part of our responsibility. But let me come to a wider point on the human rights situation in Xinjiang. Because we don't have much time, suffice it to say, most recently, we have a delegation of about 30 Ambassadors from the Muslim or Islamic countries visiting Xinjiang. They had some in-depth exchanges with the people there, including the Uyghur people, or what we call the "weiwuer" ethnic people. And the conclusion arrived at by these Muslim country Ambassadors, after their field visit, is that we have really protected our minority people well, including their religious rights. I don't know whether you're aware of, for example, in Xinjiang, the Uyghur population has tripled in its size as compared to decades ago. And the number of mosques in Xinjiang, you can guess where it stands, it's 24,000 mosques. That's the biggest intensity and the biggest concentration of mosques anywhere in this world, including a lot of the Muslim or Islamic countries. So that is a small window, showcasing the way the religious rights of people are upheld and respected in Xinjiang by the Chinese government.
主持人:不久前,联合国当代形式奴隶制问题特别报告员发布了一份报告,表示中国对待维吾尔人的手段堪比奴役,是违反人道主义的犯罪。请问您个人对中方对待维吾尔少数民族的方式是否有感到过些许惭愧?
Jack: Overnight, I know the UN Special Rapporteur for modern slavery has released a report which is China's treatment of the Uyghurs could amount to slavery as a crime against humanity. Do you personally feel any sense of shame as to the way that China has treated that Uyghur minority?
王小龙:相信你也注意到了,中国外交部发言人日前已公开批驳了此份报告,指出其毫无事实依据。如你所说,这是一份联合国特别报告员的报告,但并非联合国的报告,联合国本质上是由会员国组成的。它甚至也不是联合国秘书处的报告。特别报告员是一个被授予了某项特殊任务的个人,但显然,这位报告员并没有公正客观履职。
Ambassador Wang: Well, let me start by saying that you may have noticed as well that the spokesperson of our Foreign Ministry has rejected that report as completely baseless. You're right. It's a UN rapporteur’s report. It's not a UN report, because UN is essentially the membership. It's not even a report by the Secretariat of the United Nations. And the rapporteur is an individual entrusted with a special responsibility. But apparently, that particular person is not living up to his responsibility.
主持人:但有很多这样的报告。
Jack:It's one of many reports though.
王大使:没错,但如果你读了这份报告的话,就会发现其中只有一个段落提出了一些空泛的指控,并没有拿出证据佐证。如果你再仔细读一下报告的细节和相关注释,这才是有意思的地方,你会发现这位特别报告员所引用的所谓专业人士或机构的报告,都出自在涉疆问题上造谣抹黑中国的惯犯。事实上,我认为这是典型的“打包抹黑手法”。这个名称并非我的发明,而是佩洛西众议长关于美国政坛一种惯用伎俩的说法,大意是指你提出一项虚假指控,找人写几篇文章,将其发表出来,并将这些发表的文章作为指控成立的证据。这就是这份报告的实质,好似小狗追着自己的尾巴绕圈子,企图罔顾事实、循环论证。你可能也知道,中方最近向国际劳工组织递交了关于强迫劳动两项核心公约的批准书(《1930年强迫劳动公约》和《1957年废除强迫劳动公约》)。中方一直通过国内政策致力于消除强迫劳动,批准这两项公约再次表明了中国政府对在中国彻底消除强迫劳动的坚定决心,也表明了中方对保护劳动者权益事业所作的郑重承诺。
Ambassador Wang: Right. But if you look at it, there is only one paragraph making some generic accusations without any evidence to back it up. And if you look at the details and the notes, that's the interesting part, because it’s the usual suspects, the one or two so-called scholars or institutions with their reports used as backstop for the so-called conclusion drawn by this particular UN rapporteur. But actually, I think this is a classical case of what they call the wrap-up smear tactics. That's not from me, that's from Speaker Pelosi, about what happens in the United States politics. You make an accusation, you find a couple of people to do a write-up, you get it published somewhere, and you point to that as validation. That's exactly what has happened, as far as this particular report is concerned. But that's essentially a dog chasing its own tail going around in circles. But, but that's totally baseless. And you may also be aware that most recently we have notified the United Nations about our ratification of the two, what they call, the core conventions on forced labor, under the auspices of the International Labor Organization, the labor window for the United Nations family. So that, again, shows our firm commitment to stamp out completely forced labour in China. That is what we've been doing consistently through our domestic policies. And this latest ratification of these two conventions, is another indication of our strong commitment to that course.
主持人:最后,请问阿德恩将于何时受邀访华?新中两国还能做些什么在当前国际形势不确定增加的情况下进一步推动双边关系发展?
Jack: Finally then, when will Jacinda Ardern be invited to Beijing? And what else can New Zealand and China do to improve our relations at a time of global uncertainty?
王大使:一段时间以来,我们一直期待阿德恩总理能再次访华,但受疫情影响,迄今未能成行。希望随着两国边境管控措施进一步放宽,此访能在年内实现,因为今年对中新双方和双边关系来说都是非常特殊的时刻。今年是中新建交50周年,与50年前相比,中新关系一路走来取得了长足进步,值得好好庆祝一下。但同时,正如我在中国商业峰会上指出的,我们双方不能因此自满,因为中新关系与双方的需求、人民的期待、合作的潜力相比,还可以更上一层楼。例如,经贸合作已成为中新关系的重要支柱,也仍有很大的增长潜力。除传统商品外,我们还可以在一些新的领域拓展合作,这有利于刺激我们双边贸易进一步增长。我们可以在农业经营、生物制药等新西兰优势产业领域开展合作,我们双方都能从中获益。昨天,我线上参加了北帕默斯顿市和中国贵阳市结好30周年的庆祝活动,我认为这就是一个中新合作互利共赢的绝佳例证。除了双边贸易和新西兰向中国出口的货物外,两市在养牛和猕猴桃种植等方面的合作极大促进了中国当地有关产业的发展。可见,中新双方都可以从发展双边关系中获益。但当然,中新关系内涵远比经贸合作要丰富得多,中新之间绝不是简单的交易关系。例如,我们两国之间有着非常深厚的人文联系。我到任后才知道,华人群体是新西兰规模最大的少数族裔之一,人数超过25万,他们为促进中新关系和本地经济社会发展作出了卓越贡献。同时,中新两国在许多国际和地区问题上有着广泛的共同利益,我们双方都致力于世界和平与发展,乐见一个和平与稳定的亚太地区,认为应通过加强国际合作应对气候变化、疫情等全球共同挑战。事实上,我们双方已在众多国际和地区问题上开展了合作,这也将成为中新关系未来最具潜力的一个重要增长点。作为大使,我十分高兴能恰好在双边关系如此重要的时刻履新,也准备好同新西兰朋友一道,努力将中新关系提升到新的高度,不断赋予中新全面战略伙伴关系更多新的内涵。
Ambassador Wang: We've been looking forward to another visit by the Prime Minister for some time now. But because of COVID again, this hasn't taken place. But hopefully, as the border controls ease further in both countries, we could have her in China as soon as possible. And hopefully, within the course of this year, because this year is very special for us and for our relationship. We'll be marking the 50th anniversary. It’s time to celebrate of course, because we've made tremendous progress together over the years. If you compare that to what the relationship used to be about 50 years ago. I think, we've come really a long way. But at the same time, as I pointed out in my presentation at the China Business Summit, there's no room for complacency, because as compared to the demand from both sides, as compared to the aspirations from both peoples, and as compared to the potential that exists, there's still a long way to go. For example, in terms of trade, which already has become arguably the strongest pillar of our relationship, we still have huge room for further growth. And apart from the traditional products, we could also diversify into some new areas, which could help stimulate the further growth of trade both ways between our two countries. We could go into agribusiness, we could go into Bio products. These are some of the strengths of New Zealand we could build on, and from which we could benefit, as far as China is concerned. I was yesterday attending a ceremony celebrating the 30 years of sister city between Palmerston North and Guiyang in China. I think that's a very good showcase of what has happened and how the relationship has benefited both sides. Because apart from the trade and New Zealand export going into China, the cooperation we have conducted in cattle farming, and in kiwifruit farming, have helped to grow the relevant industries in China. So this is another example of how both sides could benefit from such a relationship. But of course, again, the relationship between us is much broader than trade as such. It's way beyond the transactional. We have other areas as well, for example, the very strong, deep people-to-people links between our two countries. That's what I've found out since my arrival as Ambassador this time around. The community here, the Chinese community here is one of the biggest. It's about a quarter of a million people here. And they're contributing enormously to the relationship and to the local development. And also, at the international level, both of us support peace and development in the world. And both of us want to see peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific region. And both of us want to support international cooperation, to address some of the common challenges like climate change, like the ongoing COVID pandemic. And actually, we have started working together bilaterally, but more importantly, at the regional level, and even globally. And these, I think, are areas where we share enormous common interests. And these are areas, I think, with great potential for future growth in terms of the relationship. So as Ambassador, I'm excited to have come in at this opportune and important juncture in our relationship. And I'm ready to work with our friends in New Zealand to take the relationship to the next level, to give increasing substance to the Comprehensive Strategic Partnership we have established between us.