日前，驻新西兰大使王小龙同新西兰和平与裁军联合会成员视频交流，就联合国未来峰会及中国立场、民间交流的作用和打破信息茧房的重要性、东北亚军控与裁军、金砖国家合作、中新关系等议题深入交换意见。现将会谈视频与实录整理刊载，供交流参考。
Chinese Ambassador to New Zealand, H.E. Wang Xiaolong participated in an online discussion with members of the Peace and Disarmament Collective Aotearoa. During the conversation, they exchanged views on several key topics, including the UN Summit of the Future, the significance of people-to-people connections, and the need to break through information bubbles. The discussion also covered issues related to arms control and disarmament in Northeast Asia, BRICS cooperation, and the state of China-New Zealand relations. Below is the video and transcript of their conversation.
Introduction
开场白
Mike Smith
Thank you very much for agreeing to have this conversation with my friends from the Peace and Disarmament Collective Aotearoa.
非常感谢您同意与新西兰和平与裁军联合会成员座谈。
Ambassador
It's my pleasure and privilege.
这是我的荣幸。
Mike Smith
We've got the Hon Matthew Robson, Professor Kevin Clements and Dr Gray Southon, all friends of mine and all firm advocates and activists for peace.
今天参加座谈的有马修·罗布森部长、凯文·克莱门茨教授和格雷·索森博士，都是我的朋友，也是坚定的和平倡导者和活动家。
Matthew Robson
Good morning, Ambassador. First of all, I'd just like to congratulate you on the 75th anniversary coming up. Thank you for making this time this morning. It's such an important issue for our country, and, of course, the issue for the world.
About myself, I, you may know, have the title Honorable because I was fortunate enough to serve as a minister in the Helen Clark government. We call it the Helen Clark-Jim Anderton government. And as Minister of Disarmament and Arms Control, I had the good fortune to often meet with Chinese diplomats on the issues of disarmament and nuclear weapon question. Things struck me always was that at that time, China and Russia were the only countries of the five declared nuclear powers that have a no-first-strike policy, which China still keeps.
So today, what I'm particularly interested in is hearing your views on issues. And I know that you're welcoming some of the things that we can say as well. This committee, which is I'm on, has had quite a long history in terms of New Zealand’s politics. Most of the people on it have contributed to working towards New Zealand having an independent foreign policy and not being part of military alliances.
We are very concerned about the militarization by NATO of the Pacific and what I've termed New Zealand rushing into the nuclear arms of NATO. So one of the big issues that we've got is pursuing what we saw as a principled-anti-war agenda, which we are concerned that New Zealand has moved away from. So what today's meeting will take away and the conversation with you is very important to us. And hopefully what we've got to say will be useful to you as well. Thank you.
早上好，大使。首先，我想就中华人民共和国成立75周年向您致以祝贺。感谢您今早拨冗参加座谈。今天我们要谈的话题对新西兰来讲十分重要，对世界也十分重要。
介绍一下我自己，您可能知道，我曾经担任海伦·克拉克政府，即海伦·克拉克-吉姆·安德顿政府时期的部长。作为裁军和军控部长，我很幸运曾就军控和核武器问题经常与中国外交官交流。我常想到，当时中国和俄罗斯是五个拥核国家中仅有的两个声明奉行不首先使用核武器政策的国家，至今中国仍然坚持这一政策。
因此今天我对于您在这一问题上的看法尤为期待。我理解您也欢迎我们在该问题上的看法。我所在这一联合会在新西兰政治中已有很长历史，大多数成员都致力于维护新西兰独立外交政策，支持新不加入军事联盟。因此我们很担忧北约在太平洋地区的军事化，我将其称之为“新西兰正冲进北约核武器之中”。因此，我们面临的一个大问题是，如何继续遵循“有原则的反战议程”，我们担忧新西兰已经偏离了这一议程。因此今天与您的座谈及其收获对我们来讲十分重要。也希望我们所谈能对您有所帮助。谢谢。
Gray Southon
My observations have come to the conclusion that the world is dealing with and faced with what they call a poly-crisis - a whole range of different challenges for which the overwhelming majority requires a very high range of international cooperation. And I've been really impressed with the statements of Xi Jinping around these issues, the various initiatives is undertaken. And that encapsulates a large portion of the issues that I think we need to address, recognize the extraordinary challenges that the current international environment presents, and hoping that this meeting will lead a way to going forward in developing international cooperation.
我的一个观察结论是世界正面临所谓“多重危机”，即一系列不同的挑战，需要绝大多数国家非常广泛的国际合作加以应对。我对习近平主席在这些问题上的讲话以及中国正在推动的一系列倡议印象深刻，其中包含了我认为急需解决的大部分问题，以及当前国际环境带来的突出挑战。希望今天的会议能为国际发展合作提供思路。
On the Summit of the Future and the international environment
关于联合国未来峰会和国际环境
Ambassador
Well, thank you again, Mike, for inviting me to join such a distinguished group of thinkers and activists in support of peace and in support of a strong relationship between New Zealand and China. I'd love to share some of our thinking, our perspectives on some of the issues on the agenda for the international community, particularly in relation to the ongoing Summit of the Future and the UNGA session going on at this moment in New York.
You gave me a list of questions based on your perusal of the position paper we published last year before the 78th UNGA session, and you may have noticed that we have since published another follow-up paper about two weeks ago on similar subjects, but in conjunction with the issues on the agenda for the Summit of the Future and the current 79th UNGA session.
Originally, the meeting for today had been planned for an earlier date, but I think we have the benefit of having today's discussion when the summit itself has been concluded and the Pact for the Future having been adopted. But let me start by sharing some of our perspectives on why we think a Summit of the Future is timely and pertinent, and why we have published these two position papers.
A little bit of background. As we see it, and we share this sentiment flagged by Secretary General Guterres at the Summit of the Future, that the world is going through a period of turbulence and transition. In many ways, we're standing at a crossroads. We see both some very positive and encouraging developments, but we see some negative and challenging developments as well.
再次感谢迈克邀请我参加此次座谈，同支持和平和中新关系的杰出思想家和活动家交流。我愿分享一些中国在有关国际社会关心的议题上的思考和看法，特别是关于当前正在纽约举行的联合国未来峰会和联合国大会。
你基于对中国去年在78届联大之前发表的立场文件，给了我一份问题清单。你可能注意到，两周前，中国针对未来峰会和第79届联大发表了另一份后续文件。我们今天的会议原定更早举行，推迟到今天举行有一个好处是峰会已闭幕并通过了《未来契约》。首先，作为此次对话的背景，我想分享一下为何中方认为未来峰会的召开正当其时，以及中方发布两份立场文件的考虑。我们赞同古特雷斯秘书长在未来峰会上所说，世界正经历动荡和转变期，在许多方面我们都正处在十字路口，既有积极和令人鼓舞的进展，也有消极和充满挑战的一面。
On the positive side, we see the rise of the Global South, lifting billions of people out of poverty, making the world economy more balanced and in that sense, also more sustainable. And we see science and technology advancing at pace, pushing out the frontiers of possibilities and opening up new, enormous opportunities. And although there are different negative developments or challenges, but most countries and most people, if the statements they made at the summit itself is anything to go by, most of us haven't lost hope in a better future for the world, for peace and stability and for greater sustainable development. So that's the positive side.
从积极的一面来说，全球南方崛起使数十亿人摆脱贫困，世界经济更为平衡，也更加可持续。科学技术飞速发展拓展了可能性边界，开辟了大量新机遇。尽管存在各种负面动向或挑战，但从各国在峰会上的发言来看，大多数国家和人民对和平、稳定和可持续发展的更美好未来没有失去希望。这是积极的一面。
On the challenging side, we see multiple challenges on multiple fronts.
但另一方面，我们在多个领域面临多重挑战。
On peace and security, we have two wars underway in the world. One in Ukraine, some people say it's the biggest in the continent since the Second World War. And we have the war in the Middle East, widening even as we speak. And we have increasingly the narrative of an increasing likelihood of war and its growing acceptability as a policy option, including nuclear wars. When you think of it, that's scary. And we have, as some of you have mentioned, the rise of military alliances, their expansion and their proliferation in different parts of the world.
在和平与安全方面，当前世界有两场战争仍在进行。一是乌克兰危机，有人说这是二战以来欧洲大陆规模最大的战争，二是仍在持续扩大的中东战争。当前，关于战争可能性上升的论调越来越多，战争乃至核战争越来越成为可接受的政治选项。这是非常可怕的。此外，还有你们所提及的军事联盟在世界不同地区的崛起、扩张和扩散。
On the economic front, we have had the world economy underperforming for a number of years now. COVID is a big part of it, but it's much more than COVID. It has a lot to do with some of the policy options some of the major economies have chosen in terms of the growing tariffs imposed on trade, the growing import and export restrictions, even outright bans. And these have led to slowing growth, fragmenting and shrinking trade and weakening economies.
We've seen a lot of costs of living crises in many countries, and these cost of living crises is not so much a monetary issue that can be resolved through better management of demand, but rather a supply side issue. Because there have been some major economies adopting policies along the lines of “small yards” and “high fences”. But the problem is that these purportedly “small yards” are getting bigger and bigger, and the fences are getting higher and higher, causing major disruptions and fragmentation in global trade, and impacting individual economies and the broader world economy as well.
在经济领域，世界经济多年来表现欠佳。新冠疫情是其中一个重要原因，但不是全部。更重要的原因是一些主要经济体在贸易上不断提高关税，施加更多进出口限制乃至禁令，导致增长放缓、贸易碎片化、贸易萎缩和经济疲软。许多国家都出现了生活成本危机，这些生活成本危机并不仅是可通过调节需求解决的货币问题，更多是供给侧问题。一些主要经济体采取“小院高墙”政策，这些所谓的“小院”正越来越大，“高墙”也越来越高，导致全球贸易碎片化并受到严重干扰，影响各个经济体和整个世界经济。
And also on the economic side, we see worryingly slipping or even backpedaling of countries, particularly some developed countries, on their climate change commitments, in financing and in the domestic targets for emissions mitigation or reductions. So increasingly, we see these countries paying lip service to climate change, and a lot of them are still talking the talk, but some of them are no longer walking the walk, at least not as seriously. And increasingly, we see people or countries growing unabashed about erecting green barriers of protectionism or sacrificing the green transition for short term protection of the domestic heritage and carbon emitting industries. For many of them, climate change, in other words, is on the back burner.
同样在经济方面，一些国家，特别是某些发达国家，正在气候变化融资和国内减排目标问题上滑坡甚至开倒车。因此我们看到越来越多的国家对应对气候变化口惠而实不至，许多国家仍在谈论，但其中一些已不再付出行动，至少不再那么认真。某些国家越发毫不掩饰地设置保护主义绿色壁垒，或为短期保护国内传统和高碳排放产业牺牲绿色转型。换言之，对许多国家来讲，应对气候变化已被暂时搁置。
And we also see the rise of AI. Again, this has got potential for some paradigm shifts in terms of how people live and work and study, how we organize our economies and even the broader societies. But there is increasing realization that there's no guarantee that Artificial Intelligence will only do good and and no harm.
我们也看到人工智能的崛起。人工智能可能改变人们生活、工作和学习方式、经济组织方式乃至社会组织方式。但越来越多人认识到，我们无法保证人工智能只为善，而不为恶。
And then, finally, as has been observed by the Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr Guterres, that multilateralism and the multilateral system is under increasing strains, and some say even close to its breaking point.
最后，正如联合国秘书长古特雷斯所说，多边主义和多边体系正承受更多压力，甚至有人说其已处在崩溃边缘。
So, in summary, we in China think that, indeed, what has happened has reinforced our conviction that we live in this small world, getting even smaller. We have only one planet Earth, and our economies are closely interlinked. And if war breaks out, particularly if a nuclear war breaks out, that may mean the end of civilization as we know it.
Like it or not, we share a common future, and the future we shall live in will very much depend on the individual and collective choices we make today. That's why we think that the Summit itself is very timely, and we support the Pact For the Future, although, depending on how you look at it, it represents either the lowest or the highest common denominator among the members of the international community.
因此，总而言之，在中国看来，目前所发生的一切都让人更加确信，我们生活的世界正越来越小，地球只有一个，各国经济紧密相连。如果战争乃至核战争爆发，可能意味着文明的终结。无论喜欢与否，我们都有一个共同的未来，而未来很大程度上取决于各国各自和集体做出的选择。这就是为什么中方认为此次峰会正当其时，也是我们支持《未来契约》的原因，尽管从不同的角度看，它可能代表了国际社会最小或者最大公约数。
For all its imperfections, there are definitely a lot of places that things could be improved or strengthened, but at least it's a good starting point. The challenge, of course, for us is to build upon that Pact, and make sure that whatever is agreed could be implemented so that they could help to start to make the changes in how we work together as an international community, to address the many common challenges we face.
虽然《契约》有许多不完善之处可以改进或提高，但它至少是一个好的开始。当然，我们的挑战是如何在《契约》基础上再接再厉，确保达成的共识都能得到落实，从而使国际社会更好协作，应对诸多共同挑战。
The position of China
中国的立场
Ambassador
So coming back to the two position papers we’ve published, that is apparently the starting point of our discussions. The essence of these two papers, although they are about one year apart, the essence of these two papers are essentially the same. And they both draw heavily from the several global initiatives we have put forward: the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative and the Global Civilization Initiative.
说回中方的两份立场文件，也是我们此次交流的起点。这两份文件虽然相隔一年左右，但其本质相同，都体现了中方提出的几项全球倡议：全球发展倡议、全球安全倡议和全球文明倡议。
If it could boil down to one word, then the central message from both these papers would be cooperation, the need for us to work together, be it on maintaining peace and security, promoting economic growth and sustainable development, or addressing climate change or harnessing artificial intelligence and other progress in science and technology for good. So we need to, together, maximize the benefits and address the challenges dealing with the downside for our respective, mutual and common good.
如果用一个词来概括，这两份文件传递的核心信息就是合作，我们需要携手努力共同维护和平与安全、促进经济增长、实现可持续发展、应对气候变化、利用人工智能和其他科技进步造福人类。因此，我们需要最大化其优势，同时应对好挑战和不利因素，以实现我们各自和共同利益。
We certainly have many differences among countries and even within countries. Whenever these differences arise and exist, like what we have been trying to do between New Zealand and China, we hope that we could manage those constructively and and seek political settlements to disputes through peaceful negotiations, rather than resorting to the threat or the use of force.
And for cooperation to work and bear fruits, we think that multilateralism, again, for all its imperfections and weaknesses, is still probably the best option that will give us the best chance of success - multilateralism based on commonly agreed rules, as best embodied in international law, and multilateralism achieved through an international system with UN at its center. Hopefully, all this work along these lines will conduce and eventually add up to what we call the building of a global community with a shared future for mankind.
So that's I think what I want to speak to as a start, and I may go on to some of the other questions you have given me. But before doing that, we might as well listen to some of you who may want to come in with your own comments and thoughts.
诚然，国与国之间甚至国家内部，都会有不少分歧。每当分歧出现，正如新西兰和中国之间一直努力的那样，我们希望能够建设性地处理分歧，通过和平谈判寻求政治解决争端，而非诉诸威胁或使用武力。我们认为尽管多边主义有不完善之处，仍是通向成功的最好选择。多边主义基于共同商定的、体现在国际法中的规则，要靠以联合国为中心的国际体系来实现。这些都有助于最终实现构建人类命运共同体的目标。
这就是我的开场白，我愿接着谈谈你们之前提出的一些其他问题。但在此之前，不妨先听听在座各位的意见和想法。
Mike Smith
Thanks very much, Ambassador. So who would like to start?
非常感谢大使。谁想开个头吗？
Kevin Clements
Well, I'd like to just say that one of the big assumptions of the workshop we had in China was definitely the kind of revived support for the whole notion of cooperative and common security and to develop institutions that are capable of promoting cooperation rather than confrontation.
So, you know, I'm very pleased to hear that this is sort of right at the heart of China's orientation towards multilateralism and the revival of the United Nations and so forth. And I'm also very pleased that you are seeing value in the Summit on the Future, because I think many of us are very cynical about what might come out of it. It does seem that the Pact For the Future maps out, in general terms, at least sort of some more objectives to go with the old SDGs, etc, as well. So yeah, very, very, very supportive of that.
我此前参加的在中国举行的研讨会上，一个重要的观点是恢复对合作、共同的安全观的支持，建立能促进合作而非导致对抗的机制。所以，我很高兴听到中方对多边主义和联合国复兴等问题的核心看法正是如此。很高兴中方看到了未来峰会的价值与意义，我想不少人或许对峰会成果都持怀疑态度。总的看，峰会至少为可持续发展目标等规划了前进方向。所以我对此非常支持。
Gray Southon
I agree with you very much about the need for multilateralism, but I think there's another factor. And I may be naive in this, but it seems to me that the fundamental reason why multilateralism is being undermined is that, for a range of different reasons, countries find it more difficult to get along with each other. For instance, I've got quite a number of concerns about how New Zealand and China interact and it goes on and on and the big powers are finding each other threatening in a number of ways.
When you've got these sorts of interactions developing, then it's increasingly difficult to see that the multilateralism is the answer, particularly when military power is playing such a dominant role. So just an attention to the simple processes of inter-government and international relations: seeing it not just as an interaction between governments, but about interactions between businesses and cultures and all those different ways nations can interact, which the Chinese papers recognize.
This is a complex process and a very beneficial process, if it's done, and done effectively, and a very damaging processes. I think the relationship between domestic and international relations can be very positive, it can be very negative. And so there's a complex of interactions are working out there, which has an impact on the broader, multilateral process.
我非常同意大使关于多边主义必要性的观点，但我认为还有另一个因素。也许我的想法过于天真，但在我看来，多边主义受损的根本原因在于，出于各种理由，各国发现彼此间更难相处了。例如，我对新西兰和中国的互动方式就一直感到担忧，并且大国发现彼此在很多方面都构成威胁。
当类似的互动多了，人们就愈发难以认同多边主义是解决问题之道，尤其是在当前军事实力日益占主导地位的情况下。因此，让我们关注一下政府间交往和国际关系的过程：不要仅将其视为政府间的互动，而是工商、人文、以及所有可能领域的交往，中方的文件中也认可这点。这是一个复杂的过程，如果做得好，会十分有益，否则也可能会产生损害。我认为国家内部及相互间的交流互动既可能非常积极也可能非常消极。这些复杂关系都会对更广泛的多边进程产生影响。
Matthew Robson
A bit succinct as I can, because one of the things that I have in mind with our conversation today and I hope it's the beginning of other conversations, as there's so much to cover, is that all of us have different forums where we input into the New Zealand conversation. And one of the things that's most apparent to me now, and includes myself, is often the ignorance of the positions of China, of developments of China. But not just of China, because you've mentioned the Global South, which is also the global majority, and the conversation there is very much, as you are well aware, of a multi-polar world.
The official conversation in New Zealand, and that is reinforced by both the previous government under Jacinda Ardern and Mr Hipkins but also the present government, is that we put our eggs in one basket, which is the US-NATO basket. Now what I'm coming to get your views on this is really how we develop the conversation in New Zealand. I know that's up to us, the different forums. But last year, I was in Australia and had the opportunity to meet with your colleague, the Ambassador in Canberra, and it occurred to me, as he explained, the hostile environment that was developing in the media and parts of the government against China. We're a little bit behind in New Zealand, but it's a worrying trend in terms of that being entered.
So my question really is in relation to the positive parts of what we can do in New Zealand. Some comments from you on the both the Silk Road and the BRICS, and they’re big topics, as part of the push to get a world which is multi-polar. And then back to the question of what the strategy of NATO is,as elevated in the Communiques, having named China as an enemy above Russia and they share the position. So in terms of the New Zealand debate, those are issues that I want to take up and have been taking up on others. And I am just interested in your comments on how you see the possibilities in New Zealand or the way to discuss these issues.
我尽量简明扼要，因为今天要谈的东西太多了。关于今天的交流，我想到了一件事，希望也是后续其他对话的开端，那就是在新西兰我们会在不同场合讨论不同话题，然而，我却明显能感觉到，包括我自己在内，对中国的立场及发展状况知之甚少。不仅仅是中国，大使刚才也提到了全球南方，这是全球的大多数，在那里人们所讨论的是多极化的世界。而新西兰的官方叙事，无论是阿德恩以及希普金斯领导的上届政府，还是本届政府，都在强调我们要把鸡蛋放在一个篮子里，那就是美国—北约篮子。
现在，我想听听您关于如何塑造新西兰本地叙事的看法。我知道这主要取决于我们自己以及不同的讨论渠道。去年，我有幸在堪培拉与您的同事、中国驻澳大利亚大使会面，正如他所说，我意识到在澳媒体和部分政府机构中逐步形成了敌视中国的氛围。在新西兰我们还未到那个地步，但这种趋势令人担忧。因而，我的问题实际上是关于在新西兰我们能发挥哪些积极作用。您谈到一带一路和金砖合作，这些都是宏大的话题，都是世界多极化发展的一部分。再比如北约的战略问题，在公报中中国被列为超越俄罗斯的敌对国家，他们内部似乎愈发认同这一点。这些都是我想讨论的问题，也是其他国家一直在讨论的问题。我想听听您的见解，您是如何看待在新西兰发生类似情况的可能性或者我们应该如何讨论这些问题。
On the role of people-to-people links and the importance of breaking through the information bubble
关于民间交流的作用和打破信息茧房的重要性
Ambassador
If I may, I can perhaps briefly respond to both of your questions together. Because I do see an important role to be played by the people-to-people links. Of course, the government-to-government level interactions would be important because they help to set the overall policy directions and the necessary policy environment for interactions between countries to take place. But at the end of the day, relations between states are about relations between peoples. So it is important that we listen to the voices of the peoples in different countries as stakeholders, as participants and as potentially contributors as well, and to make sure that their aspirations and their needs are reflected in the conduct of the relationships. So that's why we think that as in our bilateral relationship, these people-to-people links are very important.
如果可以，我想先简要统一回答一下刚才提到的问题。我认为人文交流可以发挥重要作用。当然，政府间的互动也很重要，因其有助于确定总体政策方向，为国家间交往创造必要政策环境。但归根结底，国家间关系是人民之间的关系，他们是两国关系的利益攸关方、参与者和潜在贡献者。因此，我们必须倾听各国人民的声音，确保他们的愿望和诉求在国家间关系的发展中得到体现。因此，中方认为，在我们的双边关系中，人文纽带非常重要。
But let me also talk briefly about another issue that is related to this. The question about a hostile environment, as has been mentioned by the Honorable Robson. It has a lot to do with the information bubble we live in these days. For example, you mentioned, very little is known among the general public, both here in New Zealand and perhaps in some of the other developed countries, about China, about Chinese positions, and about what is going on in the country. There is the Anglo-Saxon media, and frankly speaking, a lot of their coverage on China is biased. I wouldn't say it's deliberate disinformation, but at least it helps to mislead and misinform the public about the country, about the people, and about some of its policies, both domestically and externally. I think that has impacted on the public perceptions and public sentiments towards other countries, towards some of the relationships involved.
It is important that we break through that veil of at least inaccurate information, and by breaking through that information bubble. That's also why we think that these people-to-people links are important and why we've been encouraging our friends from different countries, including from New Zealand, to come to China to see for yourselves what is going on in the country. We would like to show the different faces and the different sides of the country. We are still a developing country, although we've been developing quite fast over the years, so there are still some very important imperfections.
You may have noticed that not long ago, the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China adopted an important resolution on furthering comprehensive reforms in the country. An important presumption for that resolution is that there are things that are imperfect and that there are things that needs to be improved in the country. That's why we need to further reform.
So we would like to show you the different sides of the country, including its imperfections. But at the same time, we hope that these visits, and better information sharing and dissemination could help to put things in perspective for more people, so that they could better inform public discourse on the relationship and hopefully also policy making.
Because ill-informed policy making will lead to distortions or even outright mistakes in policies which will have an impact on relationships. And I think there is widespread support in both countries, China and New Zealand, for a robust relationship to be developed. Because, as people realize, it is in the fundamental interest of both to have such a relationship, But it is also important that we can have better-informed decisions to support the development of the relationship along the lines both sides would like to see to the benefit of both peoples.
我也简单谈谈与此相关的另一个话题，也是罗布森阁下刚刚所谈，关于敌对氛围的问题。这与我们如今所处的信息茧房有很大关系。例如，您提到，无论是在新西兰还是在其他一些发达国家，公众对中国、中国的立场以及中国正在发生的事情知之甚少，坦率讲一些盎格鲁-撒克逊媒体对中国的报道有很多偏见。我不想说这是蓄意造谣，但至少误导了公众对中国、中国人民以及中国某些内外政策的认知。我认为这影响了公众对有关国家以及双边关系的看法和态度。重要的是，我们要冲破至少是不准确信息的藩篱，冲破信息茧房。所以，我们认为人民之间的联系非常重要，因此也一直鼓励包括新西兰在内不同国家的朋友们到中国来，亲眼看看这片热土上正在发生的事。我们希望展示中国的不同侧面。中国仍是发展中国家，尽管近年来发展速度相当快，但仍远非完美。
各位可能知道，不久前，中共中央通过了关于进一步全面深化改革的重要决定，其中的一个重要背景就是，中国还有不完善、需要改进的地方，这就是为什么我们需要深化改革。因此，我们愿意展示中国的不同侧面，包括不完美之处。但与此同时，我们也希望这些交流访问以及更充分的信息共享和传播，能帮助更多的人形成正确认知，从而更好地服务关于两国关系的公共讨论，也希望能为决策提供参考。因为偏听偏信的决策会导致政策扭曲甚至完全错误，进而影响两国关系。
我认为，中新两国民众都普遍支持双边关系强劲发展，因为人们认同中新关系良好符合双方的根本利益。但同样重要的是，我们可以在更准确信息的基础上做出决定，推动两国关系沿着双方都希望看到的方向发展，造福两国人民。
So that's my brief response to some of your comments. If I may, Mike, I would like to go on to some of the questions you have posed in your list, starting perhaps with Arms Control and Disarmament in Northeast Asia.
这就是我对之前评论的一些简短回应，如果可以的话，我想继续谈谈清单中列出的一些问题，或许可以从东北亚军控和裁军开始。
Mike Smith
Yes definitely, I absolutely endorse what you say about people-to-people relationships. I think they are crucial to building understanding of China. Mary, my wife, took our younger daughter to China on a school visit in 1994, which was one of the first visits we've had and I think we’ve had a connection by the sister city programs for many years with Xiamen particularly.
And I do agree with you absolutely that people here do not get a good picture of China, and the best thing to do is to go and have a look and see what a vibrant, diverse and interesting place, culture and people it is. So that's just my endorsement, please do go on to pick up some of the questions, thank you Ambassador.
当然可以。我完全赞同您关于人文关系的看法，我认为这对于增进对中国的了解至关重要。1994年，我和妻子玛丽带着我们的小女儿去中国参访一所学校，那是我们的第一次参访，并且多年来通过友城项目我们同中国建立了联系，特别是同厦门。
我完全同意您的的观点，这里的人们并不了解中国，对此最好的办法就是亲自去看一看，看看中国是一个多么充满活力的地方，中国文化和人民是多么的多元有趣。以上是我对您观点的赞同，请您继续回答一些问题，谢谢大使。
On Arms control and disarmament in Northeast Asia and military alliances
关于东北亚军控与裁军以及军事联盟
Ambassador
Arms control and disarmament in Northeast Asia is a heavily loaded topic with many dimensions. But for us, it is better to be seen in the broader context of peace and security in the region and beyond.
We’re fortunate, I think, in Northeast Asia to have enjoyed overall peace and stability since the 1950s. We haven’t seen a major war or major military conflict in our part of the world since then. But there is no room for complacency because there exist some real and potential tension points in the region, and there are some concerning developments, both within the region and beyond, that may have an impact on the situation there.
Of course, a key link in the overall equation for the region would be what happens on the Korean Peninsula, which I may come back to, if you like me to at a later stage. But there are other issues at play as well that are also important. For example, in relation to what happens on the Korean Peninsula, the US forward positioning of troops in both Korea and Japan, the efforts to introduce weapons or weapon systems into the region that will have a negative impact on stability, including the attempted deployment of intermediate-range missiles in Korea, Japan and the Philippines by the United States, for example.
And there is also, longer term, the US-Japan Security Treaty. More recently, there is also the Quad, which claims it is not targeted at any specific country, but evidence suggests otherwise, including the most recent episode on the hot mic in the Quad Leaders Meeting in the United States. And there is, of course, the issue of AUKUS, which threatens to increase divide and tensions in the region and start an arms race. And there is also, as has been mentioned in earlier in our discussions, the attempts by NATO to extend its tentacles to this part of the world.
东北亚军控和裁军涉及多个方面，但我们最好从地区及世界和平安全这个高度来看待这个问题。我认为幸运的是，我们所处的东北亚地区自20世纪50年代以来总体保持和平稳定，未曾发生重大战争和军事冲突。但我们并不能因此自满，因为地区尚存一些引发局势紧张的现实和潜在冲突点，地区内外均有一些令人担忧且可能对地区局势产生影响的事态发展。诚然，朝鲜半岛局势是地区整体格局关键一环，如果可以我会稍后再谈回这个问题。
当前还有一些仍在发展的问题也同样重要，例如与朝鲜半岛局势相关，美国在韩国和日本前沿部署军队，将武器和武器系统引入地区，例如试图在韩国、日本、菲律宾部署中程导弹，将对地区稳定造成消极影响。从更长远看，《美日安保条约》也一样。最近，还有“四方安全对话”，其声称不针对任何特定国家，但近期于美举行的四方安全对话领导人峰会上的“麦克风事件”证明，事实恰恰相反。此外，当然还有“美英澳三边安全伙伴关系”，其将加剧地区分裂风险、制造紧张局势，引发军备竞赛。同样，正如我们此前谈到的，还有北约将触角伸向该地区的问题。
At the heart of all this, we see the zero-sum cold war mentality. As a matter of principle, China does not believe in military alliances, so we have entered into none. Because military alliances, by definition, would be exclusive. They are targeted at other countries, and they could be confrontational, and they could lead to, rather than prevent conflicts or even wars from arising. So in many senses of the word, military alliances could be self-defeating. And they try to ensure absolute security through primacy, supremacy, hegemony or dominance at the expense of security of others.
So eventually, as we see it, what we’ll end up with, and this has been demonstrated repeatedly, including by what has happened in Ukraine, that at the end of the day by establishing or extending these military alliances, rather than greater security for anyone, we end up with greater insecurity for everyone. So that's our general position on military alliances.
以上所有问题究其本质就是零和博弈和冷战思维。作为原则，中国不相信军事联盟，也未加入任何军事联盟。因为军事联盟从本质上讲是排他、对抗性的，针对其他国家，将导致而非阻止冲突和战争发生。因此军事联盟往往会事与愿违，其以牺牲他国安全为代价，企图以至高无上的霸权和主导地位实现绝对安全。我们认为，包括乌克兰危机等事件也一再证明，建立或扩大军事联盟最终不会让任何人更加安全，而是所有人都更加不安全。这就是我们对于军事联盟的总体立场。
There is also the generic nuclear arms control and disarmament issues in which some of you may have a long standing interest. As far as China is concerned, we have always advocated non-proliferation, arms control in nuclear weapons and eventual complete nuclear disarmament.
Before that happens, you may know that China only keeps a minimum nuclear arsenal, one of the smallest among nuclear weapon states and adopts a purely defensive nuclear posture. As has been mentioned by Matt, again, China is the only nuclear weapons state that adopts a no-first-use policy, and is the only one that has committed publicly to not using nuclear weapons against non nuclear weapon states or nuclear weapon free zones or areas. And we hope others nuclear weapon states could do the same.
As for nuclear disarmament, we hold that those with the biggest nuclear weapons stockpiles should bear special and primary responsibility, and general nuclear disarmament should proceed gradually in a way that will maintain global strategic stability and ensure undiminished security for all. So that's where we stand in some general terms on some of the issues in relation to arms control and disarmament including in relation to Northeast Asia.
此外是在座中的几位长期关注的核武控制和核裁军问题。中国一贯支持核不扩散、核军控，并主张最终全面禁止和彻底销毁核武器。在实现这个目标之前，正如你们所了解的，中国始终保持最小规模核武库，把核武库规模控制在所有拥核国家中最低水平，并奉行自卫防御的核战略。正如之前罗布森部长所提及，中国是所有拥核国家中唯一奉行不首先使用核武器政策的国家，也是唯一公开承诺不对无核武器国家和无核武器区使用核武器的国家。并且我们希望其他拥核国家也可以这样做。
关于核裁军，我们认为那些拥有最大核武库的国家应承担特殊、优先责任，核裁军应遵循“维护全球战略稳定”和“确保各国安全不受减损”原则循序渐进加以推进。这就是我们在包括东北亚地区在内的军备控制与裁军问题上的总体立场。
If I may, let me come back to an earlier point that I made briefly about what happens on the Korean Peninsula, because this is one of the issues that will have a central impact on peace and stability in the region. There are several dimensions of the issues involved. One is denuclearization, but that is only the symptom of the issues on the surface, but what lies beneath the surface would be the longer term peace and security issues, the longer term peace architecture that we haven't yet put into place on the peninsula, even if the Korean War ended many many years back. And they have engendered some deep and long standing mistrust between some of the parties involved, and that lies at the heart of the issue, the situation on the Korean Peninsula. Unless those issues are dealt with head on, I don't think we'll see a fundamental and lasting solution.
如果可以，请允许我回到之前简要提到的朝鲜半岛局势问题，因为这是对地区和平稳定具有核心影响的问题之一。此问题涉及几个方面，无核化是其中之一。但半岛无核化仅是表象，深层次的则是长期的和平与安全问题，即使在朝鲜战争结束多年后，我们尚未在半岛建立长期和平架构。这造成了有关国家之间长期的互信缺失，这才是朝鲜半岛局势和有关问题的根源。除非这些问题得到正面应对，否则问题不会得到根本持久的解决。
There have been efforts in the past trying to bring that about through, for example, the Six-Party Talks. But some of you may recall that each time when we get close to a solution, there would be something that would happen to throw us back and throw the process back to square one, as if there are forces in some countries that don't want to see a solution to this problem. Because that will deny them the excuse for the forward positioning of the military troops, and without the instability and even chaos, sometimes they wouldn't be able to maintain their dominance on some of the regional countries. So I think, at some point, we need to face up to those issues and figure out a solution so that we could bring about a long term and lasting peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula and in the broader Northeast Asian region. Thank you.
此前我们曾尝试通过六方会谈等方式来实现半岛和平。但你们中的一些人可能还记得，每当我们接近达成解决方案时，总会有一些事件导致各方和整个进程退回原点，就好像某些国家不想看到这个问题得到解决。因为这将使他们丧失部署军队的借口，并且若不稳定乃至混乱不存在，他们可能将失去对某些地区国家的控制。所以我认为，我们需正视这些问题并找到解决方案，以在朝鲜半岛和东北亚地区实现长期持久的和平与稳定。谢谢。
Kevin Clements
I'd be very interested in your comments on BRICS and the countries that are lining up to join it.
我想知道您对金砖国家以及那些正在申请加入“金砖”的国家的看法。
Matthew Robson
I'd like to know a little bit about the BRICS and the Silk Road because of its contribution to peace, but just to continue on the question of the Korean Peninsula.In 2011, I had the opportunity to go and talk with North Korean’s officials about nuclear weapon free zones. And on the way through, I was able to talk with Ministry of Chinese Foreign Affairs officials. And so it was very instructive about the Six Party Talks. I understand it gets thrown back every time. But recently, there's also, you may be able to comment or you may not have up-to-date information, there's also been an initiative, coming out of the Japanese parliament for continued talk on nuclear weapon free zones in the Korean Peninsula. That's just one point. You may have some information on that.
The second point is, of course, the forward positioning is something we're very concerned with on our committee, that the participation of New Zealand in the Rim-packed exercises which don’t assist, and also the exercises that take part in the north of Australia, which other NATO countries have joined in now, as well as the Pacific Rim base countries, Japan, South Korea, etc. So it’s a long question. I'm just asking if there's any further comments that, and I know Kevin's got good knowledge of this, just on the Korean peninsula, before we turn perhaps, to the role of BRICS and the role of the Silk Road in world peace.
我也想了解一下金砖机制和一带一路对和平的贡献，但我想先继续谈谈朝鲜半岛问题。2011 年，我有机会就无核区问题同朝鲜官员交换看法。期间，我还同中国外交部官员有过简短交流。中国对六方会谈的看法对我很有启发，当然我也知道这一机制的进展不算顺利。近期，日本国会提出了有关朝鲜半岛无核区问题的倡议，不知道大使对此是否了解以及能否就此发表看法。这是第一个问题。
第二问题与环太平洋军事演习有关，我们委员会非常关注新西兰参与环太平洋地区军事演习有关动向，包括近期在澳大利亚北部进行的军演，其他北约国家以及日本、韩国等环太平洋国家也都有参与其中，我们认为这些演习没有任何益处。抱歉问题有点长。我知道凯文对此很有研究，在我们讨论金砖国家和一带一路对世界和平贡献前，大使能否回答一下上述两个问题。
Ambassador
Well, on the Korean Peninsula situation, I think we will support all initiatives that would contribute to a final solution to the problem. I don't have any knowledge of the latest initiative from the Japanese Diet. But again, we will welcome all initiatives that will be helpful. But I think any initiative, if it is going to work, will have to tackle some of the core issues I've just just mentioned, lying at the heart of the situation that has been going on for many years. And for that to happen, we need to change the cold war mentality that exists on the part of some of the players, and we need to take concrete steps to build up confidence and trust between the different parties, and we need to make sure that the legitimate security concerns of all parties concerned should be taken care of. So that's on the Korean Peninsula.
关于朝鲜半岛局势，我不了解日本国会的最新倡议，但中国将支持所有有助于最终解决问题的倡议。与此同时，任何倡议想要奏效，必须解决我刚才提到的一些核心问题，这些问题是多年来症结所在。要做到这一点，需要改变某些参与者的冷战心态，采取切实措施在各方之间建立信心和信任，也要兼顾有关各方的合理安全关切。以上就是我对朝鲜半岛问题的看法。
On BRICS
关于金砖国家合作
Ambassador
If I may, on to BRICS. BRICS is one of the platforms put together by some of the emerging and developing country economies. I personally worked on it as Special Envoy for a number of years. When I was still there, we started the process of the expansion of its membership, and we are glad that those discussions have come to some fruition. So quite a number of countries’ names have been added to the list. And very soon, the BRICS leaders will have their leaders meeting in Kazan, Russia in this expanded format.
BRICS is only one of the organizations or platforms that reflect the current trend in this world, about the growing support for multilateralism, about the multi-polarization that has been going on, again, the rise of the Global South. And it has played a useful role in bringing these countries, the member countries, closer together, both economically and politically as well.
But from day one, all the members of BRICS have made it very clear that BRICS is not meant to be an exclusive club. It's not meant to target any other countries. So we believe, similar to what is embodied in APEC in the early years, in open regionalism. And that's, I think, what we have been preaching, and that is exactly what we had been practicing as well.
If you remember, BRICS started with four members. So it was started as BRIC, and then South Africa came on board. So we added the S and BRICS has become from singular into plural. So that, I think, signals very well for the future of the organization, and also the road it has taken since then, particularly with the latest further expansion of the membership. And hopefully, with this enlarged format, we could make even greater contribution to the process of equal and orderly multi-polar world building, as well as bringing about an inclusive and mutually or even universally beneficial globalization process. So that is, I think, the aim of BRICS. And I think it is on its road to getting there, at least contributing to achieving these goals.
But of course, BRICS alone won't be able to do that. So that's why we are reaching out to other countries as well. We are having these dialogues with other organizations, and we are developing this BRICS+ format so that we can welcome other countries, even if you are not exactly a member, to join in some of the discussions and cooperation.
回到金砖问题上，金砖是由新兴国家和发展中国家经济体组建的平台。我本人作为金砖特使在这一领域工作多年。在我任职期间，我们启动了金砖扩员进程，很高兴这些讨论取得了一些成果，如今金砖名单上又增加了不少成员。很快，金砖国家领导人将在俄罗斯喀山举行金砖扩员后的领导人会议。
本质上，金砖只是反映当今世界趋势的组织或平台之一，这一趋势包括对多边主义的更多支持、多极化和全球南方的崛起等。金砖在拉近成员国经济和政治关系方面发挥了积极作用。在金砖设立之初，所有成员就已明确表示，金砖不是一个排他的俱乐部，无意针对任何其他国家。我们相信的是类似亚太经合组织早年活动所体现的“开放的地区主义”。我们是这么说的，也是这么做的。
如果你们记得的话，金砖国家一开始只有四个成员。南非加入后，我们给BRIC加上了 “S”，自此，“金砖”从单数变成了复数。我认为这一变化开启了金砖合作机制近年来的发展，特别是近期的进一步扩员。我们希望扩员有的金砖机制可以为推动平等有序的世界多极化和普惠包容的经济全球化进程做出更大贡献。我认为这就是金砖国家的目标，金砖国家正在实现这一目标，或正在为实现这一目标做出贡献。当然，单靠金砖是不够的。因此，我们也在与其他组织对话，与其他国家接触，建立 “金砖+”模式，欢迎非成员国家加入到讨论与合作中来。
Matthew Robson
That would leave the door open for New Zealand, at least, to have a dialogue process with the BRICS.
这将为新西兰同金砖对话敞开大门。
Ambassador
If New Zealand is willing to do it, I think it'll be welcomed by the BRICS countries.
如果新西兰愿意的话，我想金砖国家也会对此表示欢迎。
Mike Smith
On that question of BRICS+, we're having a Fabian session early next month. When I went to look at what information was available in New Zealand, or who'd reported that, I only found two reporters who had actually ever mentioned it. So there is very little awareness of BRICS in New Zealand, in my opinion.
So we're trying to do that, improve that with the Fabian. And interestingly, the person I found is an experienced journalist in the agricultural field at the moment, with diplomatic experience in the background. And his article I found actually he does advocate why New Zealand should join BRICS+, or should join the dialogue in the debate. And I have to say, I agree that it would be, in my opinion, a great deal for us to benefit from if we were able to get to that point.
Okay, thank you very much, Ambassador, for your explanations and and presence and dialogue and discussion. It's been very much appreciated.
关于 “金砖+”问题，我们将在下月初举行一次费边会议。在我尝试了解新西兰当地对金砖的报道时，我发现仅有两位记者提到过。因此，在我看来，新西兰人对金砖合作知之甚少。
因此，我们正试图通过费边协会改善这一状况。有趣的是，我找到的这个人目前是一名农业领域资深记者，并曾有外交工作经验。他在文章中主张新西兰应加入 “金砖+”，或者说至少加入有关讨论对话。我也很同意他的观点，在我看来，新西兰如能参与其中将受益匪浅。
好的，非常感谢大使的解释和讨论。非常感谢。
Kevin Clements
Can I ask some question about regional security architecture, which you alluded to earlier on. You know, a long time ago, when I was at the Peace Research Center at Canberra, I worked very closely on the whole development of the ARF and so forth. And then I worked with some Canadian colleagues on developing something similar in Northeast Asia, between China, Japan and Korea and so forth. There would be regular meetings specifically focused on regional peace and security. Is China sympathetic towards the development of something like the ARF and Northeast Asia?
我想问一些关于地区安全架构的问题，您刚才也提到了这个问题。很久以前，之前我在堪培拉和平研究中心工作时，曾参与东盟地区论坛等工作。在此之后，我与加拿大同事合作，试图在东北亚地区，也就是中国、日本和韩国等国之间建立类似的机制，基本构想是东北亚国家将定期举行会议，讨论地区和平与安全问题。中国是否支持在东北亚地区建立类似东盟地区论坛的对话机制？
Ambassador
We have already a trilateral dialogue format among China, Japan and South Korea. That is been going on for a number of years at the Prime Minister's level, and it covers all aspects of the relationships, starting with, obviously economics, but going on to some of the other areas of common interest. Whenever the leaders get together, they also talk about some of the regional developments, including some of the peace and security related issues as well. So I think there's the basis there, and we could as well build upon that basis and take further steps as we go into the future. Certainly there is room for that.
我们已经有了中日韩三边模式。这一总理级对话机制已经持续了数年，涵盖三国关系的方方面面，包括经济和三国共同关心的领域。三国领导人在共同出席会议时也会讨论地区发展，包括与地区和平安全相关的议题。因此，我认为东北亚地区机制已经有了基础，我们也可以在此基础上采取进一步措施进行完善，这一领域还有很大空间。
Mike Smith
Okay, any further, final questions?
好了，还有最后的提问吗？
On China-New Zealand relations and the agency of New Zealand
关于中新关系和新西兰可以发挥的作用
Ambassador
If I may, because you gave me another question, I'd like to remark on, a possible role for New Zealand in some of the things we've discussed. Because as ambassador, this is something obviously of immense interest to me.
如果可以的话，我想谈谈你们在问题单中提到的，新西兰在我们谈及的一些问题中可能发挥的作用。作为中国驻新大使，这显然是我非常感兴趣的议题。
We have a comprehensive strategic partnership, and that applies to both how we might work together bilaterally, but more importantly, also at the regional and global levels as well. On the surface, the endowments and circumstances of New Zealand and China couldn't be more different. But below, if you scratch the surface, I think there's definitely a lot we share between us, at least much more than meets the eye.
中新是全面战略伙伴，这既适用于两国在双边层面的合作，也适用于两国地区和全球层面的合作。从表面上看，新西兰和中国的禀赋和国情相差甚远。但如果深入挖掘，我认为我们之间有很多共同之处，至少比表面看到的要多得多。
For example, both give top priority to economic growth and improving our people's lives, and both pride ourselves on our sovereignty, dignity and independence, and neither would like others to interfere in our internal affairs, and both pursue harmony between men and nature.
And I remember very clearly, before coming here as ambassador, I worked together very closely with New Zealand colleagues within the framework of the United Nations. Back in 2019 when the Secretary General of the United Nations called a summit of climate action, New Zealand and China and I personally took the lead on one of the nine clusters of issues, which is called nature-based solutions. And I'm very proud to say our cluster is the most productive and most successful out of all the nine clusters worked on in that process.
So that's one of the examples, I think, how we might work together to promote sustainability, both in our respective countries and more broadly in the world. And both support multilateralism and the functioning multilateral system, and both support free trade and a rules-based multilateral trading system, and again, open regionalism. And both would like to see an open, fair, inclusive and non-discriminatory environment for innovation to take place. We may call these by different terms. You may call them values or interests or principles, but however you choose to characterize these, we share them between us, and they're important for both of us.
Given the current complex geopolitical realities, there's a lot of room for agency, for what I call the SMCs, small and medium sized countries like New Zealand, that do not take sides and keep friendly relations with all countries in this world. There's a lot of space for you to contribute to peace and security and the building of an open world economy. It is an important public good that New Zealand can help to contribute, but it'll also serve your own interest, and our common interest as New Zealand and China. So in that sense, it is not only the right thing to do, but it is also the useful thing to do.
In that space, I think there's lot of potential for China and New Zealand to work together in the context of the United Nations and in some regional organizations as well, including APEC.
例如，两国都把经济增长和改善民生放在首位，都以自身主权、尊严和独立为荣，都不希望别人干涉我们的内政，都追求人与自然的和谐。
我还清楚地记得，在来这里担任大使之前，我曾与新西兰同事在联合国框架内密切合作。早在2019年，联合国秘书长呼吁召开气候行动峰会，新西兰和中国牵头提出了九大议题之一，基于自然的解决方案，我本人也参与其中。非常自豪地说，在这一过程中，我们的议题组是所有九个议题组中最有成效、最成功的一个。我认为这是我们如何在各自国家和世界范围内共同努力促进可持续发展的成功案例之一。
两国都支持多边主义和有效的多边体系，都支持自由贸易和以规则为基础的多边贸易体系，支持开放的地区主义。双方都希望看到一个开放、公平、包容和非歧视的创新环境。无论你称其为价值观、利益或原则，无论如何表述，我们都共享这些理念，因为它们对我们双方都很重要。
面对当前复杂的地缘政治现实，对新西兰这样的中小国家而言，如果不偏袒任何一方并与世界上所有国家保持友好关系的，发挥作用的空间其实是很大的。新西兰可以为和平安全以及建设开放型世界经济做出更大贡献。这既是全球重要公共产品，同时符合新西兰自身利益，也符合中国和新西兰的共同利益。
因此，无论从道义还是利益而言，这都是值得做的。在这一领域，我认为中国和新西兰在联合国以及包括亚太经合组织在内的一些区域组织中的合作潜力还很大。
Concluding remarks
结束语
Mike Smith
Well, I think that's actually a good note to finish on, because absolutely I couldn't agree more. I think that the more we can focus on the things that unite us, and where the ways, where we can, as you began to say, work together, and then the better all of us are going to be.
I personally see that the future for the world is heading towards Asia. I think we are part of that area, that part of the world. We have so much to learn. We've had to learn so much from our own indigenous culture about different ways of seeing the world. There's a huge amount we can learn from China about different ways of seeing the world. There's a huge amount of benefit that China's way of seeing the world can be to us. So that's certainly my view.
One final thing I would like to say, I think that the other thing I'm really interested to hear what you said, Ambassador, about working together with New Zealand in the UN connection on climate change issues. Because I'm just reading about how China looks like it's appearing to get to peak CO2 emissions the huge development of electrical vehicles, the huge, huge, huge, colossal development of solar panel generation, is something that on a scale that we really don't even begin to comprehend. But the more that we could learn about and find out about it and hear about it, I think again, the better off would be.
Thank you very much, Ambassador. And we look forward hopefully to see to having further such conversations, to deepen our mutual understanding and our relationship with you and the People's Republic of China. So thanks again. We'll sign off now.
这是一个很好的结束语，我完全认同这一观点。我认为，我们越是能把注意力集中在那些能把我们团结起来的事情上，像您开始说的那样，通过各种方式共同努力，那么我们都会变得更好。
个人认为，世界的未来正朝着亚洲发展，我认为新西兰在世界中的定位是亚洲的一部分。我们有很多东西要学，我们必须从自己的本土原生文化中学到看待世界的不同方式，而在这一问题上，我们也可以从中国学到很多东西，中国看待世界的方式对我们大有裨益。这是我的看法。最后我还想说，有机会想听您再深入讲讲中新两国在联合国框架内开展气候变化合作。因为我刚刚读到有关中国即将实现碳达峰以及中国电动汽车和太阳能发电的巨大发展相关报道，其规模之大，我们尚未真正理解。但我们了解得越多、发现得越多、听到得越多，就越有益处。
非常感谢您，大使。我们希望能有更多这样的对话，加深我们的相互了解，加深我们同您和中华人民共和国的关系。再次感谢。我们的活动正式结束了。
Ambassador
Thank you again for giving me this opportunity, and I look forward to continuing the discussions, either online or in person in future. Thank you.
再次感谢你们给我这次机会，期待今后能在线上或线下继续有关讨论。谢谢。